Respect James Toney Bitches!

[Bozo_no no]

No it isn't. He is about 6', perhaps even 6'1". Byrd is a legit heavyweight, though a small boned one.




Again, Holyfield is 6'2" with wide shoulders and is very much a (small) heavyweight. In fact, look at this picture that I seem to put up everytime someone talks about Toney being a heavyweight.




It's a great picture because Toney is lined up with Evander and you can see clearly how small he really is compared to a modestly sized heavyweight.

You seem to think merely weighing in as a heavyweight makes someone a heavyweight. If Jeff Lacy moved up to heavy and weighed a bloated 205 and somehow knocked a few guys out would you refer to him as a natural heavyweight? No that'd be ridiculous. It seems like you have trouble understanding the term natural heavyweight. When I say Toney isn't a natural heavyweight it isn't a knock to him as a fighter. I am just stating a fact, that his skeleton is average sized for a supermiddleweight/lightheavyweight.

He is undersized at heavyweight, and not even to the degree that Tyson and Joe Frazier were, who were naturally large boned (though relatively short) men.

Bottom line is that Toney is only a heavyweight because of weight training and an eating disorder. He has the frame of a light-heavyweight that has been bloated and bulked up. That much anyone can see for themself simply comparing how small he looks next to Holyfield.

Do you honestly think his skeleton somehow grew to accomodate the extra weight when he moved up to heavyweight? He's the same guy who fought Roy Jones weighing 167 pounds. Would you attempt to convince me that he had a heavyweight's frame in that fight?

James Toney weighed 200lbs in college playing football.

He's a Heavyweight now, period.

I don't care if you want to say he isn't a "Natural" Heavyweight. There's no criteria on which to base a comment like that and act like it's a fact. History is full of GREAT Heavyweights who NEVER weighed in above the 200lb mark.

And you're wrong about Byrd. By your own restrictive definition, Byrd is not a Heavyweight either.

Byrd may be taller, but he's soft at 210. If he was ripped, he'd be a Cruiserweight. It just so happened he wanted to fight at heavyweight, so he put on the weight and fought there. And rightfully so.

Byrd's a Heavyweight because he fought at Heavweight successfully.

This conversation is futile.

James Toney in peak shape is between 220-225. He's been at Heavyweight for a few years now fighting and beating Heavyweights. His opposition is no worse than Vitali or Byrd.

He's a Heavyweight. Period.

Guys can start out at any weight they want, but if they move up, and continue to fight in one division while weighing in that class and are successful, that's the criteria to be labeled as a "Heavyweight" or "Light Heavyweigh", or "Welterweight".

I suppose Manny Pacquiao, who started at 108, isn't a Featherweight?

A 220-235 pound James Toney is a tank, and a very viable Heavyweight.

[Moon]

We are having this conversation for one reason only .... the Heavy scene is the ****s. Place Toney in the Heavy scene anywhere in the mid-eighties to late nineties and he'd be retired by now.

Toney's greatest asset at Heavy is his lack of serious talented opposition. He's almost assured of a strap, probably Byrd's, but he'll lose that or maybe retire with it without facing any legacy-building opposition. Or, he faces Vitali and gets his ass handed to him.

[Moon]

A 220-235 pound James Toney is a tank ....

At 5 foot 9, I'd tend to agree.

[Kid Achilles]

Bozo,

You are unable to deal with the scientific facts I've thus dealt out.

If you cannot understand how Holyfield and Byrd at 6'+ 215-220 lbs are naturally bigger than a 5'9" guy who fought half of his career between 160-170 I am done talking to you because you will never learn.

Here are some FACTS.

Joe Louis at 6'2", 198 lbs with bigass fists and broad shoulders had a bigger frame than the 5'9" Toney.

George Foreman, though only 6'3" 215-220 lbs would make the 235 pound Toney look like a fat midget if you stood them next to one another. Foreman had a massive frame, much bigger than Guin or most other heavyweights who are 6'3" and 220 lbs. All of the natural 220 lbers today weigh 240, 250 or more.

This is most clearly evidenced in Toney vs. Ruiz where John easily pushes him around in every clinch (though their weights were similar) because Toney didn't have the natural skeletal strength to do anything about it. Yes Toney still won, and yes he will probably beat most of these guys (aside from the Klitchsko's and S. Peter of course) because they don't have the skill. They really don't know what they're doing.

But put Toney in an era of skilled heavyweights, where he doesn't have so much of an advantage in inside fighting and counterpunching, and suddenly his lack of strength and natural size make it very difficult for him to win.

[Bozo_no no]

Bozo,

You are unable to deal with the scientific facts I've thus dealt out.

If you cannot understand how Holyfield and Byrd at 6'+ 215-220 lbs are naturally bigger than a 5'9" guy who fought half of his career between 160-170 I am done talking to you because you will never learn.

Here are some FACTS.

Joe Louis at 6'2", 198 lbs with bigass fists and broad shoulders had a bigger frame than the 5'9" Toney.

George Foreman, though only 6'3" 215-220 lbs would make the 235 pound Toney look like a fat midget if you stood them next to one another. Foreman had a massive frame, much bigger than Guin or most other heavyweights who are 6'3" and 220 lbs. All of the natural 220 lbers today weigh 240, 250 or more.

This is most clearly evidenced in Toney vs. Ruiz where John easily pushes him around in every clinch (though their weights were similar) because Toney didn't have the natural skeletal strength to do anything about it. Yes Toney still won, and yes he will probably beat most of these guys (aside from the Klitchsko's and S. Peter of course) because they don't have the skill. They really don't know what they're doing.

But put Toney in an era of skilled heavyweights, where he doesn't have so much of an advantage in inside fighting and counterpunching, and suddenly his lack of strength and natural size make it very difficult for him to win.

You are very quick to show frustration when you make comments about Chris Byrd's height making him naturally bigger than James Toney.

Toney was a bigger guy than Byrd when they were both 18, and he's bigger now.

That's like saying David Tua is naturally smaller than Byrd.

And AGAIN, you fail to realize that by your own strict definition of what is and isn't a Heavyweight, Byrd DOESN'T fit the bill. He was fighting BELOW Lt Heavyweight in 1993, and had to bulk up to make Heavyweight. Even today, at 210, he's soft and could make the Cruiserweight limit. Yet he's BULKED up, because he's CHOOSEN to be a HEAVYWEIGHT.



And as for your "FACTS",

which lauahbly include you thinking Sam Peter would beat Toney (LOL) and an assertion that you "know" how Toney would do in various eras,

You're not doing anything but spouting an opinion. The majority of everything you said after "Here are some Facts" were not facts in the least.

You aren't backing anything up with facts. You're talking about height and shoulder size as though it conforms to some imaginary factual agenda you're referring to.

James Toney in shape at this age is 220-225. He's a Heavywieght, and a TOP Heavyweight at that, and that's all there is to it.

[Torino]

Bozo,

You are unable to deal with the scientific facts I've thus dealt out.

If you cannot understand how Holyfield and Byrd at 6'+ 215-220 lbs are naturally bigger than a 5'9" guy who fought half of his career between 160-170 I am done talking to you because you will never learn.

Here are some FACTS.

Joe Louis at 6'2", 198 lbs with bigass fists and broad shoulders had a bigger frame than the 5'9" Toney.

George Foreman, though only 6'3" 215-220 lbs would make the 235 pound Toney look like a fat midget if you stood them next to one another. Foreman had a massive frame, much bigger than Guin or most other heavyweights who are 6'3" and 220 lbs. All of the natural 220 lbers today weigh 240, 250 or more.

This is most clearly evidenced in Toney vs. Ruiz where John easily pushes him around in every clinch (though their weights were similar) because Toney didn't have the natural skeletal strength to do anything about it. Yes Toney still won, and yes he will probably beat most of these guys (aside from the Klitchsko's and S. Peter of course) because they don't have the skill. They really don't know what they're doing.

But put Toney in an era of skilled heavyweights, where he doesn't have so much of an advantage in inside fighting and counterpunching, and suddenly his lack of strength and natural size make it very difficult for him to win.

He is not interested in debating about Holyfield, Toney, Heavyweights, or the facts you've provided. Bozos only interest is watching you try to make your point while attempting to get under your skin. He gets off on it. It's futile to try to actually debate with him since his only objective is to get on your nerves and he will do anything to accomplish that goal.

He doesn't care about the topic, or any topic for that matter.

[Bozo_no no]

He is not interested in debating about Holyfield, Toney, Heavyweights, or the facts you've provided. Bozos only interest is watching you try to make your point while attempting to get under your skin. He gets off on it. It's futile to try to actually debate with him since his only objective is to get on your nerves and he will do anything to accomplish that goal.

He doesn't care about the topic, or any topic for that matter.

So says the guy who NEVER posts in the boxing forum outside the topic of a Klitschko or me.

You're a waste Torino. An absolute waste.

[Run]

He doesn't care about the topic, or any topic for that matter.

Answer me something Torino. I am being serious.

Why do the things Bozo types about the Klitschko Brothers bother you so much?



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[Moon]

Toney beating Guinn is practically meaningless. First, Guinn is not such a smart or skilled fighter, which is evident in his two very uninspired losses to Barrett and Lyankovich. Toney was expected to have some trouble with Guinn because of his advantage, but Guinn's lack of ring savvy and general lack of skill overwhelmed any possible advantage his size might have given him.

[Bozo_no no]

Toney beating Guinn is practically meaningless. First, Guinn is not such a smart or skilled fighter, which is evident in his two very uninspired losses to Barrett and Lyankovich. Toney was expected to have some trouble with Guinn because of his advantage, but Guinn's lack of ring savvy and general lack of skill overwhelmed any possible advantage his size might have given him.

But since there haven't been manying "meaningful" wins by top Heavyweights, it fits in nicely.

Guinn is solid and durable, and although he's lost a few fights, he's never been man handeld and nearly shut out.

For a stay busy fight, that was a solid win.