Shaver's Punching Power Is Completely Overrated.

[studentofthegam]

I don't care about the praise The Clay receives. It's dwindling at an astonishing speed anyway.

But to DELETE posts which feature even the slightest criticism of The Clay (for example The Clay's own quotes) is simply WRONG.

However it shows what I have been telling all along: The Clay's followers are in reality a sect of Claytomaniacs watching his fights on their knees.

Well its easy to see where your heart is because you keep callin the man Clay. If you cant give it up for Ali's greatness then you have n internal dilema Mr. Charlie.

[nomadman]

Earnie probably is the No. 1 amongst the hardest 1-punch hitters, confirmed by both Ali and Larry Holmes. It's not the same as to say he would have beaten Tyson or Wlad. He wouldn't. But for 1-punch power, he beats 'em.

Based on what? All his one punch knockouts?

[nomadman]

This has become an intriguing topic. My opinon is that the hardest puncher is the puncher who can KO his opponent with ONE punch. it's just common sense, and the KO's resulting from a barrage of punches, where the guy is stunned and an easy mark, or susceptible from accumulated punishment are just not of the same quality for strength.

I've seen Pipino Cuevas in a fight where the action was just normal and suddenly, out of nowhere, he hit the guy and he dropped for the count. Tommy Hearns was noted for the same thing. I've seen Naseem Hamed do it also. WK KO'd Brock with 1 punch. And I think that Brock was the most awkward fighter he ever faced. Klitschko wasn't able to figure him out really until about the 5-6th rd.

All the top fighters that you guys have quoted as saying that "Shavers was the hardest puncher I've ever fought" very likely beat him, and this only enhances their own reputations. I don't believe them myself.

A fighter is likely to remember a punch that stunned him as being the hardest he ever received, because he would be still conscious, and has felt the effects.

The fighter who is hit and it's "lights out" doesn't even remember getting hit, so to him it wasn't a hard punch, he never felt a thing.

So if, say for example, Briggs says that Klitschko is the hardest puncher he ever faced, it's because he was conscious all the time and can remember the stunning feelings.

Very late in my own career, I was knocked down for the 1st and only time ever, and rolled over and got up in the same movement. I didn't even know I'd been hit, and thought I'd tripped. But the ref was just going to begin a count, and I could hear actual bells in my ears, so it MUST have been a hell of a wallop. If I'd taken many heavy punches before I was knocked down, then I'd remember them and be able to say that THAT guy was a hell of a heavy puncher.

This makes me doubt that the fighter himself who has been suddenly KO'd is the best judge. And I doubt Ali anyway because he talked a heavy load of nonsense most of the time. That was what brought him to public attention in the first place, his brashness and loose tongue, plus his very flawed style. An Olympic medal didn't mean nearly as much for a guy's reputation years ago, like it does today. it's what you did in the ring. The VAST majority of the top fighters ever, weren't Olympic medal winners.

Common sense. On another matter, I think the RING list is very skewed, with undeserving fighters in front of harder punchers.

This makes me thing that they made their list from BOXREC just by counting the percentage of stoppages and actual KO's, and not really investigating with deep thought.

Just my opinion.

This is perhaps the best post in the thread. Too many people take another's word over the truth of their own eyes. Shavers's power was well above average, but he was not the hardest puncher of all time, IMO, no way.

[nomadman]

love earnie man, he could knock a ****ing elephant over.

he has a two houses in chesire by me and Ive seen him running up Calday Hill backwards

what a guy, dont disrespect earnie

I don't see questioning someone's punching power as disrespecting them, though some of the posts in this thread have been pretty disrespectful, mostly from the opposing side.

I like Earnie as a character, and have rewatched many of his fights multiple times. But I've also long thought that his punching power simply doesn't live up to his vaunted reputation as undeniable king of the one-punch heavies.

Unlike some people however, I'm always willing to have my opinion changed. With Earnie the challenge is simple: Show me a video containing five or more of Shavers's one punch knockouts. Not knockdowns, knockouts. Stoppages from one-twos are permissable as well. Depending on the brutality of those knockouts (I'll keep an open mind about this) I'll be more than happy to change my tune.

Until then I'll stick to my stance.

[tyson]

Physics.
Mass x acceleration = force.

Which means a 245 pound giant like Lennox Lewis, which was also a rather fast big man, will always deliver more force in his punches than a 210 pound equally fast man.

Athletes are getting bigger, stronger, faster, better, more technical and more efficient year by year.
As a general rule, today's boxers would slap old-timers around without too much difficulties.

To me, Shavers was not particularly technical, not particularly fast, not particularly big and not particularly efficient.

From what I have seen, I would rate Lewis and Foreman as bigger punchers than Shavers.

[nomadman]

What quality opponents did Vitali knocked out? Larry Donald TKO10, Danny Williams TKO8, Sam Peter RTD8, Corrie Sanders TKO8, Ross Purrity TKO11, Vaugn Bean TKO10, Juan Carlos Gomez TKO9, Chris Arreola RTD10, Albert Sosnowski KO10, Kevin Johnson UD, Timo Hoffmann UD, and Shannon Briggs UD.

Depends on what you mean by quality. There are some very tough guys in that lineup. Donald, Arreola, Purrity and Peter might not be great fighters skill wise, but they could take a punch. The fact that they were stopped, if on their feet or on their stools, speaks highly of Vitali's punching power.

Shannon Briggs said that Vitali hits harder than Lewis and Foreman....hmmmm. For one I never believe a fighter what he says right after the bout. For one he is too emotional and he is just speaking on the now and his inner feelings. But didn't it just take Lennox 5 rounds to TKO Briggs. Vitali had 12 rounds of steady hitting Briggs with clean shots and eventuallt break Shannon's face but he couldn't stop him.

Has Briggs retracted his words? If not, I don't see why you should dismiss them as the products of over-emotion. I get what you're saying but if anything a person's memory of an event is likely to be freshest the closest to the time it actually occurred.

Anyway, all this is moot since I don't believe him either. In fact I try not to take what a fighter says about his opponent very seriously at all, be it complimentary or not, for a number of reasons. Regarding punching power, I share many of the same thoughts about the matter as Edgarg. Unless they're taking bodyshots I don't see how a fighter can guage the power at which he's being hit by with any degree of accuracy. The very senses which are used to receive impressions are being disrupted to the point of malfunctioning, and in the most extreme cases (i.e. knockout) rendered completely useless. How many times have we heard of fighters getting knocked out cold, coming round a few seconds later, and having absolutely no memory of the event in question? Or of fighters losing all memory of a fight after getting hit with a big bomb?

And we're expected to trust them? Sorry.

To me if you want to judge real power of a fighter. My biggest test is can that fighter KO a quality opponent? You can pad your record with a bunch of stiffs, but what happens when you have quality in front of you?

Well in Shavers's case he mostly lost. But why must an opponent be "quality" for it to count? Surely knocking out an Oliver McCall or a David Tua speaks more for your punching power than knocking out a Wlad Klit or a Lennox Lewis, despite the former two being inferior opponents. For me, durability and toughness of opposition comes before skill when measuring a puncher's opposition. Remember, we're only measuring power here, nothing else.

If you go to a decision or it takes a the fighter all day to stop the guy and the guy still does not go down. I start to question. With George Foreman he KO/TKO quality opponents.

Foreman's best win by far is over Frazier, but even then he had to send Frazier to the deck multiple times before the ref waved it off. Norton and Moorer are good, legacy wise, but both guys weren't the toughest dudes on the block and were stopped more brutally by other fighters (Cooney in Norton's case and Tua in Moorer's). His best win for me, power-wise, was his stoppage of Chuvalo. But then Chuvalo didn't go down.

I'm not questioning Foreman's power by the way. Just responding to the above point.

Earnie Shaver punching power is not overrated. When Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, Ken Norton, and Ron Lyle all stated that Earnie Shavers is the hardest puncher they ever faced. Now how are you going to question those legends. Think about who they been in the ring with. Ali- Liston, Williams, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Lyle, Bonavena, and Chuvalo. Holmes-Norton, Cooney, Tyson, Mercer, Holyfield, and McCall. Norton-Foreman, Bobick, Cobb, and Cooney. Lyle-Bonavena, Foreman, and Cooney. Those four individuals have been in the ring with Shavers right along with the other heavy hitters they fought in their career and to them right along with the experts Shavers is the hardest puncher.

See my point above re: fighter's testimonies.

[hent]

Naseem hamed probably hits harder than him.

[nomadman]

Physics.
Mass x acceleration = force.

You can't use simple high school physics when talking about a system as complex as the human body. There are a number of other factors involved, body mass distribution, solidity of frame upon impact, size of fist, accuracy, timing, whether you're punching up at an opponent or down, etc etc. A fighter like Malignaggi punches noticeably less hard that a fighter like Maidana, despite being not only the same weight but faster as well.

Which means a 245 pound giant like Lennox Lewis, which was also a rather fast big man, will always deliver more force in his punches than a 210 pound equally fast man.

That's true, all else being equal. But a smaller man usually compensates for his lack of stature in other ways than can even the gap. He might fight from a crouch, or launch his body more into shots, knowing that he's less likely to get countered than if a bigger man were to do the same. Or, if he's fighting in a restricted weight division, he'll be more solidly built which has its own advantages (as well as disadvantages). Shavers definitely launched himself into his shots, was physically powerful in all the right places, and fought from a wide base and low centre of gravity, which gave him very good power for a smaller heavyweight. However, there comes a point where technique, speed, accuracy, and, yes, size and weight come into play, and Shavers was distinctly lacking in these categories by modern standards.

Athletes are getting bigger, stronger, faster, better, more technical and more efficient year by year.
As a general rule, today's boxers would slap old-timers around without too much difficulties.

To me, Shavers was not particularly technical, not particularly fast, not particularly big and not particularly efficient.

From what I have seen, I would rate Lewis and Foreman as bigger punchers than Shavers.

So would I. Though don't forget that Foreman was one of those "old timers," and Lennox is no spring chicken either. Shavers would still be considered a hard puncher today, though not the hardest IMO.

[nomadman]

Naseem hamed probably hits harder than him.

P4P undoubtedly. Now that guy really launched himself into his shots!

[nomadman]

I notice that no one has been able to post that vid I asked for. I suspect because it doesn't exist.

Which leads me to an interesting question: just why is Shavers so renowned as a one-punch knockout artist when he clearly doesn't have the body of KOs to prove it? One punch knockdowns yes. Accumulation stoppages yes. One punch knockouts? *sound of crickets chirping*

Shavers one and only one-punch KO of note is his win over Jimmy Ellis. That's it. And that somehow translates into "greatest one-punch knockout puncher in the history of boxing"???

What the hell?