Comments Thread For: Chris John Returns To Dominate Fernando Saucedo

[Dave Rado]

My point is, by this stage in someone's undefeated career would you not go up in weight

Not if your frame doesn't support it (as was also the case with Hagler, Foster, etc.) - as I pointed out in my previous post, but you either didn't read it or chose to ignore what I wrote.

or even fight better opponents?

It's been hard for him to get fight against big names because of his style and because he's unknown outside hardcore boxing fans and Indonesian fans. Until recently all the name fighters in his division (apart from JMM) considered him high risk, low reward and didn't want to fight him. That may change now as long as Gamboa accepts the challenge. But Gamboa is promoted by Arum, and Arum has a long track record of refusing to make fights that he considers high risk low reward, so even though Gamboa is John's mandatory, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Arum kills the fight.

yeah Jones and Hopkins stayed in America but that's because it's more lucrative for them to do so.

Which is exactly why John has fought mainly in Indonesia - as I pointed out in my previous post. He makes good money fighting there, regardless of the opponent, but can't make any money at all fighting in the States unless his opponent is a big name, due to his defensive style, and the fact that he's unknown in the States. If he fought anyone in the States who was not a big name, the fight would make a loss.

Let's see him against Lopez anyway....

That would be a great test if Lopez agrees to it. John-Gamboa would also be a great test if Gamboa agrees to it. But in both cases, I'd be very surprised if Arum doesn't kill the fight.

[johnm is...]

lol, chris john = asian calzaghe

Stop jocking my style, fool.

[Dave Rado]

JAnd outside of a win over JMM (which I had him losing that fight) I don't see what all the hoopla about him is about. He needs to beat better opponents in order to make it to the HOF.

I have never ever seen anyone claim that John is HoF-worthy, what are you talking about???? (jreckoning's posts were sarcastic, in case you didn't realise).

If he beats both Gamboa and Lopez in style, than maybe he'd be considered for the HoF. Maybe.

But I doubt he'll get either fight, because Arum will almost certainly kill those fights, because he considers John high risk-low reward. (Just like he killed Pavlik-Abraham for that reason).

[Dave Rado]

it would be equivalent in terms of beating a guy with their hype but in terms of the same quality of fighter lacy and rocky juarez are at about the same level.

What rubbish. Juarez has never held a world title and has never beaten anyone. Lacy was a world title holder, was expected by most US boxing experts to beat Calzaghe, and he had destroyed Robin Reid and Sheika, and beat Vanderpool, which were all much better wins that anything Juarez ever managed. The Calzaghe fight destroyed his confidence and he never recovered. He was never great, but nor is Gamboa. Lacy and Gamboa are absolutely comparable. Lacy and Juarez are not remotely comparable.

Kessler is also comparable to Juanma, having beaten Froch and schooled Andrade. Juanma is every bit as full of flaws as Kessler is, but like Kessler, is several classes above Juarez.

[Iceta Lives]

I have never ever seen anyone claim that John is HoF-worthy, what are you talking about???? (jreckoning's posts were sarcastic, in case you didn't realise).

If he beats both Gamboa and Lopez in style, than maybe he'd be considered for the HoF. Maybe.

But I doubt he'll get either fight, because Arum will almost certainly kill those fights, because he considers John high risk-low reward. (Just like he killed Pavlik-Abraham for that reason).

John will probably pull out of the fight like I mentioned in another thread. Watch. Even if the injuries are real they put the division on freeze since he's considered by a lot of people to be the #1 guy.

[Dave Rado]

John will probably pull out of the fight like I mentioned in another thread. Watch.

Gamboa is far more likely to pull out than John is. Arum will claim there's no money in it. Watch.

[Steward]

Rado, i failed to spot the Foster/Hagler mention. However, I think John's frame isn't prime to go up in weight, it's possible though. He's typically a thin rangy fighter and a taller featherweight. I mean the difference between a featherweight and a lightweight is not comparable to the jump from middleweight to light-heavy. Just look at the difference in stature. Or light-heavy to Heavyweight. Take for instance the last 10 years, how many ex-feather/superfeatherweight fighters have gone up to lightweight?! Many more than the middle to light-heavy. The two fighters you mentioned become a little invalid if you take into account the development in sport science since those days. Tarver and Adamek are heavyweights now!

I don't know, it just doesn't seem right to me that a champion would just toil away with these average match-ups. You compare this to someone like Berto and he's getting torn for his lack of opposition.

Who's chances do you rate higher? Gamboa or Lopez?

With this, what would you consider his defining fight so far then?

[Dave Rado]

Who's chances do you rate higher? Gamboa or Lopez?

Lopez by a short head. Both are very talented and yet full of flaws. Both vs. John would be pick 'em fights, IMO, but I think John is a little more likely to beat Gamboa than he is to beat Lopez.

With this, what would you consider his defining fight so far then?

His only really good win was against JMM, which, as others have pointed out, was extremely close but certainly not a robbery. Pac's wins over JMM were equally close, and if anything even more controversial, but they were still considered pluses for his legacy by most people. Anyone who can beat JMM, even in a very close and slightly controversial fight, is a very good fighter.

Juarez is a good and tough gatekeeper, nothing more, but he is nevertheless a borderline world class perennial contender (sort of like Jerry Quarry used to be), so the Juarez fights did at least prove that John is still world class.

But longevity as a champion has also to be taken into account. Hopkins is much touted nowadays for having defended his Middleweight title so many times, even though prior to Trinidad, the quality of his opposition was pretty poor. If John fights and clearly beats Gamboa and Lopez, those would be his defining wins, with the JMM win adding lustre; and the fact that he's been a champion for such a long time would then certainly greatly enhance his legacy and possibly even mean he would be considered for the HoF. If he doesn't fight them, though, longevity alone, plus one very narrow win over a future Hall of Famer, won't be enough.


As for your other points, even if he could have put on weight without losing speed and power, which I'm not convinced of, I still don't think any of the big names would have fought him. He was just too much risk for too little reward, until recently. (And even now, I'm not convinced that Arum won't pull Gamboa out of the fight, claiming that the money wasn't there to make the fight worthwhile, as he did with Pavlik-Abraham, and many other fights that he has killed in the past).

All of the defensive fighters in the HoF are American. Why? Because if you have a very defensive style, and are not American, it's almost impossible to make any money fighting in the States, and it's almost impossible to get fights against the big names in the division, due to the risk-reward ratio.