Is Ali a bit overrated ?

[WladIsTheChamp]

"You are seriously crazy. Are you saying Ali needed god's help to beat a man who was SHOT in the stomach a couple of months before the fight and who had his large intestine removed, who was basically a walking dead man, who was 12 years older than Ali, who was already beaten 5 times? Big puncher? Are you serious? Cleveland Williams had a 63% KO ratio, I would not call someone like that a big puncher. " - Again I already told you. It's not the fact that he beat him which is important. It is the manner in which it was executed.

Cleveland Williams was a big puncher. It has been well documented.

"Ali, way overrated, but his record and fame puts him firmly in the top 10 boxers of all time. H2H in any fantasy matchup, he barely makes 20 HWs of all time, he is beatable by many, many current and past fighters. Those time machine arguments are lame though, we can only compare fighters to their available competition." -He belongs in the top three boxers of all time. In a fantasy match up He makes the number 1 heavyweight easily. No one could beat him.

I think you are a wind-up artist, I seriously doubt you are being serious. If you are, then you are crazy. Either way, you are not refuting anybody's arguments, you are just repeating the same thing over and over again.

[omarinbox]

You're crazy man! This man knocked out Liston and Foreman. GTFO.

[Vadrigar.]

So the fact that he was heavier than his opponent 43 out of 61 times is random according to you? You are still ignoring your lack of historical facts and statistics I see. Let me repeat - you stated that I made up the fact that Ali beat a bunch of guys weighing between 177lbs and 185lbs when he weighed in a comfortable 196lbs -220lbs. I came back with "look it up on boxrec". You came back with: "the weights are in a random and jumbled up pattern. So this dosent prove anything"? Huh? What? You do realize that you are ignoring my argument and going of on a tangent leading to a total non sequitor conclusion, right?

So the fact that he was heavier than his opponent 43 out of 61 times is random according to you? - They are all comparable weights, so I don't see the problem.
The people at lower weights are not in a consistent pattern so you cant use that as an argument. Again they were NOT CHERRY PICKED.

"You are still ignoring your lack of historical facts and statistics I see. Let me repeat - you stated that I made up the fact that Ali beat a bunch of guys weighing between 177lbs and 185lbs when he weighed in a comfortable 196lbs -220lbs. I came back with "look it up on boxrec". You came back with: "the weights are in a random and jumbled up pattern. So this dosent prove anything"? Huh? What? You do realize that you are ignoring my argument and going of on a tangent leading to a total non sequitor conclusion, right?"

I never stated that you made up the fact. I didn't think it was possible because it was the heavyweight division.

It proves that they were not cherry picked.

[Vadrigar.]

I think you are a wind-up artist, I seriously doubt you are being serious. If you are, then you are crazy. Either way, you are not refuting anybody's arguments, you are just repeating the same thing over and over again.

I have already refuted your arguments about being "GOAT" and the "weight" issue. You choose to ignore them and call them "bull****".

what a shame.

[omarinbox]

Then theres the fact heavy-weight was a brawlers division and he bought Sugar Ray style boxing to it.

He made the division interesting to watch. A lot better than the Valuev style shufflers you East Europeans bought in.

Have the Klitschkos/ Valuevs bought any style to the division that wasn't already there?

I think not.

[Vadrigar.]

Then theres the fact heavy-weight was a brawlers division and he bought Sugar Ray style boxing to it.

He made the division interesting to watch. A lot better than the Valuev style shufflers you East Europeans bought in.

What kind of boxing style do you think ray robinson had?

also watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTrOMKryggY

[WladIsTheChamp]

I have already refuted your arguments about being GOAT and the "weight" issue. You choose to ignore them and call them "bull****".

what a shame.

You didn't refute anything, you simply ignored what I posted and then came out with some "random statistical analysis" or something like that. Then you claimed that god helped Ali beat Cleveland Williams....hum, ok....here is en excerpt from Wikipedia about that fight, enjoy:

"Williams had been inactive the entire year of 1965 while recovering from gunshot wounds he suffered at the hands of a police officer arising out of traffic stop. Williams was shot with a .357 Magnum in the abdomen, barely survived, and suffered permanent kidney damage, a loss of over ten feet of his small intestine, and nerve damage from the bullet which affected his left leg above the knee, causing it to atrophy as a result. In this greatly diminished physical condition Williams fought for the heavyweight championship against Muhammad Ali on November 14, 1966 and was stopped in the third round."

So you are claiming that beating a gimp with one leg and no stomach was one of Ali's greatest victories and that he even needed God's help to do it? Wow, I don't think you are qualified to defend Tommy Morrison's legacy, let alone Ali's... Like I said, I don't think you are being serious and if you are, you are crazy...

[prinzemanspopa]

Then theres the fact heavy-weight was a brawlers division and he bought Sugar Ray style boxing to it.

He made the division interesting to watch. A lot better than the Valuev style shufflers you East Europeans bought in.


Have the Klitschkos/ Valuevs bought any style to the division that wasn't already there?

I think not.

You're quite clearly a newb who doesn't have a clue what you're talking about.There were heavyweight boxers who utilized excellent footwork before Ali was even born.


Wladimir Klitschko is actually a better boxer than Ali is.He doesn't have his resume,but technically,he is superior.


Your post is as ****** as the one which claimed glass jawed,cherry picking leech "Smokey" Joke frazier was the best heavyweight of his era.

[omarinbox]

What kind of boxing style did ray robinson have?

Fast feet fast hands.

I'm not a technical wizard, just a fan, but I've seen his fights and he moves and boxes with speed.

Has excellent ring generalship.

Switched between offence and defence rather than just brawling it out.

And he could dance!

[Bubba Chunday]

What is Ali's true record ?

The Greatest's official record is 56 (KO 37) - 5 (KO 1). After his comeback, most people agree to say Ali was never the same again. However, that somewhat diminished fighter that he became was still kicking most butts that were put in front of him.

But as many other great fighters that came before and after him, I think judges may have given him gifts quite a couple of times, some of which I know, and some of which that maybe I don't know of.

I'm particularly thinking about Young, who Ali fought in 1976. Ali came into the fight weighing 230 lbs, the heaviest he had ever been. His poor conditionning showed up immediately, as he barely threw punches in the first 3 rounds, just taunting Young and getting punched, fighting flat footed, with his hands raised like Foreman. It is needless to say that was not typical of him. Norton, who was watching the fight from ringside, didn't want to tell how he scored it, because he wished Ali would win for a third showdown with him to happen ($).

His wish was granted. Ali got away with what I would dare to call a pure robbery. I scored it 9 rounds to 6 for Young. It could have been 8 rounds to 7for Young in the worst case.

Young : 1-2-3-8-9-10-14-15
Ali : 4-5-6-7-12-13

So that is one gift decision Ali had that I know of. But what about the 2 wins over Norton ? A lot of people say Norton beat Ali 3 times. I don't know, as I have only watched the first of their 3 showdowns, the one and only bout that was awarded to Norton (a SD that should have been a UD). Since I do know Ali has had many poor showings and performances (like the Bonavena fight), I wonder if he ever had any more gifts. I recall that Shavers may have beaten him, but I don't recall what was my scorecard exactly. But I remember I thought Shavers should have won the fight.

So his record could (or should ?) be 52 (ko 37) - 9 (ko 1), a record that starts resembling to the one of Holyfield. Just like Holyfield, Ali fought the best opposition out there, but his inconsistency and gift decisions cannot be overlooked. Is Ali a bit overrated ? Have people bought too much in his auto-proclamation as ''the Greatest'' ? To what point his many very sloppy performances and gift decisions should play against him when we rank him, some of which occuring when he was not shot ?

Do you think Ali's record should be different ? Worse ? Do you know of other gift decisions he's been given ? Does Ali deserve to be considered the Greatest heavyweight of all-time, ahead of men like Louis who maybe had 1 gift (Walcott I) in their whole careers, and only 1, 2 or 3 losses while facing the best opposition available, like Lewis and Jeffries ?

How dare you!

How bloody dare you!!!!!!!!!