Argument Could Be Made That George Foreman is Greatest Heavyweight Ever

[deanrw]

Foreman went life and death against Lyle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Nre...next=1&index=1

That was one of the best Heavyweight fights of all time. That 4th round was incredible.

[PACK]

I love the Ali prime comments. When was Ali in his prime? Can someone tell me that? When he got knocked unconcious and forced to cheat and tried to fight Angelo Dundee because of a left hook by 188 lbs, out of shape, fat and thin at the same time Henry Cooper? Was he prime then? Oh, I know, it was when he fought a recently gut-shot, literally shot in the gut cleveland williams. Ali is the most overrated thing of all time next to the I-pad.

Foreman was alright. Was he drugged by the nation of Islam in order to help Ali? Probably. But that doesnt matter because Foreman lost to Tommy "The HIV" Gunn. Cant be the best if you lose to a guy with HIV. Its in Rule 1042.4(C) paragraph 3 of the boxing HOF record book: "You cannot be the best heavyweight of all time if you lose to a guy with HIV."

Vitali would murder Foreman. Those goofy arm punches hahaha, Vitali would laugh and break his face. I dont care what Foreman you put in front of Vitali, Vitali kills him.

[Derranged]

I dont think he was the best ever. In the 70s, he wasn't a particuarly skilled boxer, he was just a brutally powerful punching machine. He just pounded on people until they quit. When he met a fighter who didn't fold under his power (Ali), he couldn't do **** about it.

Still he is one of my favorite all time fighters.

[NChristo]

Who here agrees that George Foreman could arguably be the greatest heavyweight of all time?

Let's look at the stats and compare some common opponents with Ali:

1. Foreman annihilated Chuvalo in 3 rounds. Ali UD'd him (Chuvalo was only stopped twice in his career, once by Foreman, once by Frazier)

2. Foreman annihilated Ali's arch nemesis Joe Frazier in 2 rounds. Joe Frazier beat Ali and had 2 other just about even wars with him.

3. Ken Norton beat Ali and then had another very close war rematch with him. George Foreman annihilated Ken Norton in 2 rounds.

4. Foreman KO'd Jimmy Ellis in 3, Ali took 12 rounds.

5. Ali KO'd Ron Lyle in 11, Foreman in 5

6. both Ali and Foreman only lost twice in their PRIME. Ali to Norton and Frazier and Foreman to Ali and Jimmy Young. Ali beat Jimmy Young and Foreman had a fight of the year with him and lost. However, Foreman annihilated both guys that Ali lost to, Frazier and Norton.

7. The biggest argument for Ali's greatness over Foreman is obviously that Ali beat Foreman. However obviously many things can be argued against this. For one, Foreman fought very poorly and was simply outsmarted by Ali, and not truly "beaten" or beaten up. In fact he had Ali scared laying on the ropes inventing the infamous rope a dope in this fight and basically tired himself out from winging brutal hail mary shots at an elusive Ali.
Obviously Foreman would learn and not fight this same way if they had a rematch and I truly believe that if they ever had a rematch Foreman would have annihilated Ali and would have went down in history as possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time but instead the loss affected him greatly and he lost all his self confidence and self esteem.
Secondly, the reason why that loss can't be figured too heavily is this example:
Ali lost to Frazier in their first fight too. What would have happened if they never rematched and had a trilogy? Likely Frazier would go down as the greatest ever but Ali had a chance to redeem himself. Foreman never got that chance. If he did, as I said many people believe that Foreman would have annihilated Ali as he now would have known about Ali's cheap exploit of the then loose ropes allowing him to sag far back into the ropes to do the rope a dope.
Foreman at that point already had an indomitable legacy arguably equal to that of Ali. But then he comes back and in his 40's wins the heavyweight championship again, this time securing his legacy and doing something nobody has ever done before including Ali.
In this comeback he destroys guys like Jerry Cooney, Jimmy Ellis, Bert Cooper, and Michael Moorer.

So with that said, it can be argued that achievement wise Foreman ranks above Ali since he beat most of all the same guys Ali beat and did it far more impressively AND recaptured the heavyweight title and beat some of the best of the next generation/era while Ali was already retired.
But even head to head wise, it can be argued that Foreman is greater even though prime for prime he lost once to Ali to an exploitive tactic. Like I said in a rematch I and many others believe Foreman could have annihilated Ali.


Does anyone agree with this or have a cogent argument for why Ali is in fact greater than Foreman or an argument for why Foreman does not deserve at LEAST the #2 spot of all time behind Ali if not the #1 spot itself?

Your first 5 arguments are just saying that Foreman was a great power puncher rest was an interesting read, thanks.

What does Foreman have over Joe Louis and Jack Johnson though ?.
Don't want an argument just want your opinion.

[RockyB]

some guys just hit harder or choose to fight more aggressively than others, but i don't think they should be ranked higher just because of that.

if this works, and they keep knocking people out in spectacular fashion of course they have to be ranked higher?

if a guy, storms out and knocks a guy out in 2 rounds, thats a lot better than winning a close decision right?

[check hook]

Who here agrees that George Foreman could arguably be the greatest heavyweight of all time?

Let's look at the stats and compare some common opponents with Ali:

1. Foreman annihilated Chuvalo in 3 rounds. Ali UD'd him (Chuvalo was only stopped twice in his career, once by Foreman, once by Frazier)

2. Foreman annihilated Ali's arch nemesis Joe Frazier in 2 rounds. Joe Frazier beat Ali and had 2 other just about even wars with him.

3. Ken Norton beat Ali and then had another very close war rematch with him. George Foreman annihilated Ken Norton in 2 rounds.

4. Foreman KO'd Jimmy Ellis in 3, Ali took 12 rounds.

5. Ali KO'd Ron Lyle in 11, Foreman in 5

6. both Ali and Foreman only lost twice in their PRIME. Ali to Norton and Frazier and Foreman to Ali and Jimmy Young. Ali beat Jimmy Young and Foreman had a fight of the year with him and lost. However, Foreman annihilated both guys that Ali lost to, Frazier and Norton.

7. The biggest argument for Ali's greatness over Foreman is obviously that Ali beat Foreman. However obviously many things can be argued against this. For one, Foreman fought very poorly and was simply outsmarted by Ali, and not truly "beaten" or beaten up. In fact he had Ali scared laying on the ropes inventing the infamous rope a dope in this fight and basically tired himself out from winging brutal hail mary shots at an elusive Ali.
Obviously Foreman would learn and not fight this same way if they had a rematch and I truly believe that if they ever had a rematch Foreman would have annihilated Ali and would have went down in history as possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time but instead the loss affected him greatly and he lost all his self confidence and self esteem.
Secondly, the reason why that loss can't be figured too heavily is this example:
Ali lost to Frazier in their first fight too. What would have happened if they never rematched and had a trilogy? Likely Frazier would go down as the greatest ever but Ali had a chance to redeem himself. Foreman never got that chance. If he did, as I said many people believe that Foreman would have annihilated Ali as he now would have known about Ali's cheap exploit of the then loose ropes allowing him to sag far back into the ropes to do the rope a dope.
Foreman at that point already had an indomitable legacy arguably equal to that of Ali. But then he comes back and in his 40's wins the heavyweight championship again, this time securing his legacy and doing something nobody has ever done before including Ali.
In this comeback he destroys guys like Jerry Cooney, Jimmy Ellis, Bert Cooper, and Michael Moorer.

So with that said, it can be argued that achievement wise Foreman ranks above Ali since he beat most of all the same guys Ali beat and did it far more impressively AND recaptured the heavyweight title and beat some of the best of the next generation/era while Ali was already retired.
But even head to head wise, it can be argued that Foreman is greater even though prime for prime he lost once to Ali to an exploitive tactic. Like I said in a rematch I and many others believe Foreman could have annihilated Ali.


Does anyone agree with this or have a cogent argument for why Ali is in fact greater than Foreman or an argument for why Foreman does not deserve at LEAST the #2 spot of all time behind Ali if not the #1 spot itself?

i think Foreman is just as great as Ali...that's just my opinion. Tha part in bold.....many people who were at that fight and others have been adamant in their belief Young beat Ali. There is also a strong case for Norton having won all 3 fights and Ali getting decisions against others that maybe he shouldn't have. Also let's factor in that Foreman returned at 45 years of age and beat a very good HW in Michael Moorer.

[check hook]

Your first 5 arguments are just saying that Foreman was a great power puncher rest was an interesting read, thanks.

What does Foreman have over Joe Louis and Jack Johnson though ?.
Don't want an argument just want your opinion.

He hit harder than both. Liston used to say George had one punch "kill power" instead of one punch KO power. Liston is Foreman's idol.....they used to spar when Foreman was young (19 years old). Foreman also said Liston is the one fighter he was never able to back up........skill wise......it's interesting......you'd have to say Louis was perhaps the more skilled out of the three.

[elgaringo]

Who here agrees that George Foreman could arguably be the greatest heavyweight of all time?

Let's look at the stats and compare some common opponents with Ali:

1. Foreman annihilated Chuvalo in 3 rounds. Ali UD'd him (Chuvalo was only stopped twice in his career, once by Foreman, once by Frazier)

2. Foreman annihilated Ali's arch nemesis Joe Frazier in 2 rounds. Joe Frazier beat Ali and had 2 other just about even wars with him.

3. Ken Norton beat Ali and then had another very close war rematch with him. George Foreman annihilated Ken Norton in 2 rounds.

4. Foreman KO'd Jimmy Ellis in 3, Ali took 12 rounds.

5. Ali KO'd Ron Lyle in 11, Foreman in 5

6. both Ali and Foreman only lost twice in their PRIME. Ali to Norton and Frazier and Foreman to Ali and Jimmy Young. Ali beat Jimmy Young and Foreman had a fight of the year with him and lost. However, Foreman annihilated both guys that Ali lost to, Frazier and Norton.

7. The biggest argument for Ali's greatness over Foreman is obviously that Ali beat Foreman. However obviously many things can be argued against this. For one, Foreman fought very poorly and was simply outsmarted by Ali, and not truly "beaten" or beaten up. In fact he had Ali scared laying on the ropes inventing the infamous rope a dope in this fight and basically tired himself out from winging brutal hail mary shots at an elusive Ali.
Obviously Foreman would learn and not fight this same way if they had a rematch and I truly believe that if they ever had a rematch Foreman would have annihilated Ali and would have went down in history as possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time but instead the loss affected him greatly and he lost all his self confidence and self esteem.
Secondly, the reason why that loss can't be figured too heavily is this example:
Ali lost to Frazier in their first fight too. What would have happened if they never rematched and had a trilogy? Likely Frazier would go down as the greatest ever but Ali had a chance to redeem himself. Foreman never got that chance. If he did, as I said many people believe that Foreman would have annihilated Ali as he now would have known about Ali's cheap exploit of the then loose ropes allowing him to sag far back into the ropes to do the rope a dope.
Foreman at that point already had an indomitable legacy arguably equal to that of Ali. But then he comes back and in his 40's wins the heavyweight championship again, this time securing his legacy and doing something nobody has ever done before including Ali.
In this comeback he destroys guys like Jerry Cooney, Jimmy Ellis, Bert Cooper, and Michael Moorer.

So with that said, it can be argued that achievement wise Foreman ranks above Ali since he beat most of all the same guys Ali beat and did it far more impressively AND recaptured the heavyweight title and beat some of the best of the next generation/era while Ali was already retired.
But even head to head wise, it can be argued that Foreman is greater even though prime for prime he lost once to Ali to an exploitive tactic. Like I said in a rematch I and many others believe Foreman could have annihilated Ali.


Does anyone agree with this or have a cogent argument for why Ali is in fact greater than Foreman or an argument for why Foreman does not deserve at LEAST the #2 spot of all time behind Ali if not the #1 spot itself?

I see your point, and you do have one. But their are a lot of IF'S in your post. The fact is if these IF'S were put into practice back in the day, then Foreman could quite probably be considered the greatest today instead of Ali!

But the fact stands that history panned out the way it did (Ali winning against Foreman and denying him the chance to make it 1 all) and thats the reason Ali is widely recognised as the greatest.

[prinzemanspopa]

Also let's factor in that Foreman returned at 45 years of age and beat a very good HW in Michael Moorer.

You're obviously not familiar with George Foreman's career.


If you had been,then you would have known that he has one of the most padded record's of fighter in the hall of fame.



Spent his entire career cherry picking opposition that he knew he'd have an easy time with in route to undeserved title shots.


He is,however,the greatest bum beater in heavyweight history.

[check hook]

[QUOTE=prinzemanspopa;8729236]You're obviously not familiar with George Foreman's career.


If you had been,then you would have known that he has one of the most padded record's of fighter in the hall of fame.



Spent his entire career cherry picking opposition that he knew he'd have an easy time with in route to undeserved title shots.


He is,however,the greatest bum beater in heavyweight history.[/QUOTE]



That would make Ali a bum beater too............don't bother replying to anything i write unless you have something useful to offer.