Argument Could Be Made That George Foreman is Greatest Heavyweight Ever

[etlux]

No way...

Norton, Frazier, Jimmy Young, Lyle, Moorer, old Cooney

Norton's a bit overrated...his main triumph is beating past prime Ali once...Shavers murdered him...

um Norton arguably beat Ali all 3 times. He won once, then lost a split decision then lost a close UD that was ranked the #5 most disputed decision of all time by Boxing Monthly magazine because the fight was so close.

Foreman utterly annihilated Norton with ease.

[TheGreatA]

wtf? Who did he struggle with in his prime he only lost to 2 people and both were close fights and he KTFO everyone else brutally.

In his prime he struggled with every good boxer he faced, which were Muhammad Ali, Jimmy Young and Gregorio Peralta (a light heavyweight). Norton and Frazier were pressure fighters. He didn't really fight a high level of competition during his "first" career, before taking on Frazier he had only beaten a washed up Chuvalo and Peralta in 37 professional fights. The rest were journeymen and clubfighters.

[illmaticfighter]

lmao,i see what ts saying.

if you beat a guy more impressively supposedly that makes you better right?

well shouldn't foreman be better than ali since he beat the same opponents ali beat but in better fashion?

[SugarRoyJones]

Foreman is one of the baddest mofos ever. Prime Tyson didn't want to see him, and he almost smashed a prime Holyfield. If he wouldve stuck around I think he could've beat holmes too and been undisputed champ through the 80s. There wouldn't have been no 20 year old heavyweight champ because Tyson wouldve been brought along slowly to avoid Foremans reign of destruction.

[etlux]

He was good but I don't think its fair to say he is better than Ali just because he KO'd guys Ali decisioned. Ali wasn't a KO artist, his style was to outbox guys and he did it pretty damn well.

My argument is not simply based on the premise that he KO'd guys that Ali decisioned. That was just one part of it.

1. Foreman also ANNIHILATED the guys that clearly beat Ali.

2. Foreman arguably achieved more because he had a whole 2nd career that lasted basically 10 years in which he won the heavyweight championship again and beat some of the best guys of the next generation/era though he was going on 50 and obviously faded and lost to some of the best guys of that era as well such as prime Holyfield but still never got brutally stopped and gave as good as he took.

3. Even in the Ali fight, Foreman was not getting dominated or owned but quite the opposite. Ali used a number of cheap exploitive tactics such as leaning on Foreman, holding his head behind the neck and the infamous rope a dope on the infamously and exploitatively loose ropes. This all in the boiling heat of the 'jungle' made Foreman tire even faster from all of these cheap tactics so that Ali was able to take advantage of Foreman being tired.
Like I said if any fight in history warranted a rematch and a trilogy it was this but unfortunately we never got it.
But I feel confident that Foreman would be able to do much better and possibly destroy Ali.

[etlux]

plus don't forget like many of the greatest heavyweights, Foreman's most prime years were gone and wasted. He quit in '77 when he was about 27 or 28 years old I think and didn't come back until 1987 when he was almost 40... his absolute prime years were wasted, if they weren't he definitely would have been the greatest of all time that's what I feel.

[Joeyzagz]

Hes number 6 or 7 on my list but couldve easily been #1 if he hadn't retired.

How many heavyweights have 68 KOs? A handful maybe, and of that group how many did it close to 90% of the time? none.

He's definitely good but the loss to Ali will always hold him back.

[daggum]

foreman also beat shannon "the asthma cannon" briggs that's gotta count for a lot.

[edgarg]

Who here agrees that George Foreman could arguably be the greatest heavyweight of all time?

Let's look at the stats and compare some common opponents with Ali:

1. Foreman annihilated Chuvalo in 3 rounds. Ali UD'd him (Chuvalo was only stopped twice in his career, once by Foreman, once by Frazier)

2. Foreman annihilated Ali's arch nemesis Joe Frazier in 2 rounds. Joe Frazier beat Ali and had 2 other just about even wars with him.

3. Ken Norton beat Ali and then had another very close war rematch with him. George Foreman annihilated Ken Norton in 2 rounds.

4. Foreman KO'd Jimmy Ellis in 3, Ali took 12 rounds.

5. Ali KO'd Ron Lyle in 11, Foreman in 5

6. both Ali and Foreman only lost twice in their PRIME. Ali to Norton and Frazier and Foreman to Ali and Jimmy Young. Ali beat Jimmy Young and Foreman had a fight of the year with him and lost. However, Foreman annihilated both guys that Ali lost to, Frazier and Norton.

7. The biggest argument for Ali's greatness over Foreman is obviously that Ali beat Foreman. However obviously many things can be argued against this. For one, Foreman fought very poorly and was simply outsmarted by Ali, and not truly "beaten" or beaten up. In fact he had Ali scared laying on the ropes inventing the infamous rope a dope in this fight and basically tired himself out from winging brutal hail mary shots at an elusive Ali.
Obviously Foreman would learn and not fight this same way if they had a rematch and I truly believe that if they ever had a rematch Foreman would have annihilated Ali and would have went down in history as possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time but instead the loss affected him greatly and he lost all his self confidence and self esteem.
Secondly, the reason why that loss can't be figured too heavily is this example:
Ali lost to Frazier in their first fight too. What would have happened if they never rematched and had a trilogy? Likely Frazier would go down as the greatest ever but Ali had a chance to redeem himself. Foreman never got that chance. If he did, as I said many people believe that Foreman would have annihilated Ali as he now would have known about Ali's cheap exploit of the then loose ropes allowing him to sag far back into the ropes to do the rope a dope.
Foreman at that point already had an indomitable legacy arguably equal to that of Ali. But then he comes back and in his 40's wins the heavyweight championship again, this time securing his legacy and doing something nobody has ever done before including Ali.
In this comeback he destroys guys like Jerry Cooney, Jimmy Ellis, Bert Cooper, and Michael Moorer.

So with that said, it can be argued that achievement wise Foreman ranks above Ali since he beat most of all the same guys Ali beat and did it far more impressively AND recaptured the heavyweight title and beat some of the best of the next generation/era while Ali was already retired.
But even head to head wise, it can be argued that Foreman is greater even though prime for prime he lost once to Ali to an exploitive tactic. Like I said in a rematch I and many others believe Foreman could have annihilated Ali.


Does anyone agree with this or have a cogent argument for why Ali is in fact greater than Foreman or an argument for why Foreman does not deserve at LEAST the #2 spot of all time behind Ali if not the #1 spot itself?

I don't believe that either Ali or Foreman can be called "the Greatest". There have been better fighters and technicians. Foreman was possibly, one of the 2 strongest champions-the other was Jeffries.

If, as you say, (and I and almost everyone agrees with you) that the Ali defeat caused Foreman loss of confidence and self esteem, how would you expect that in a return he would defeat Ali, considering that this loss of self esteem etc, resulted in losing to Young.

You don't say how he'd conquer this self-esteem and confidence loss. In fact he DIDN'T conquer it, and retired.

As for his comeback, the wins were nearly all, if not all, tomato cans, except for Moorer and in that fight he'd easily lost every round including the 10th in which he scored a lucky KO. His second reign was not especially noteworthy other than the fact that he was the oldest heavyweight champion in history.

Still he has a solid position in the boxing pantheon of All Time Greats, well deserved.

[Tiozzo]

wtf? Who did he struggle with in his prime he only lost to 2 people and both were close fights and he KTFO everyone else brutally.

Foreman went life and death against Lyle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Nreg5t0y8&feature=PlayList&p=F9D46372A5B58C95&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=1