Comments Thread For: David Haye Believes John Ruiz Fight Will Be a War

[Derranged]

Yea because we all know Ruiz fights have a tendency to become exciting slug fests...

[Ravens Fan]

No, one does not follow from the other. You can dislike someone but still be objective about them, and I don't believe you're showing any objectivity at all.



The point is that I'm being objective. All the evidence is consistent with a fractured metatarsal. Anyone who is objective would admit that it is likely that that is what he had, while agreeing that it is possible but very unlikely that he had some other type of injury and not that.




"Slightly" is a massive stretch. It was very swollen.



Except that, after the second round, almost all of the power punches he threw were lefts. He barely threw a single solid right after the second. So that theory fails.



When you have a fractured metatarsal, you can still punch but can't hit with your full force. When you have a fractured metatarsal, they tape up your fingers in exactly the way his were taped up, and you don't need splints or plaster. When you have a fractured metatarsal, it heals on its own in a couple of months, as long as you don't mistreat it. When you have a fractured metatarsal, most of your hand can still be mobile, but you can't fully clench your fist. When you have a fractured metatarsal, your hand swells up in the way his was swollen. That doesn't prove he had one, but all the evidence is consistent with him having one. When you add the fact that a London newspaper reported that his X Ray results showed he had a fractured metatarsal, the evidence becomes too strong for anyone who is at all objective to say anything other than that it is very likely that that is what he had.



I agree that he probably didn't plan to trade, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have thrown a lot more rights than he did if his hand hadn't been injured. I see no reason why even someone who doesn't like him wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt about that, if they were being objective about it.



Well I guess you've changed your position then, because at the start you were saying he didn't have a hand injury at all.

Dave I really didn't think you would make this so easy but after a little research that I have done it is obvious that you have. And I will explain just how you have accomplished that but not before I regress for a moment.

I will start by stating that you questioned my objectivity and that is fair enough because I really don't like Haye. With that said, I thought I was giving Haye the benefit of the doubt by not jumping to conclusions. That is why I decided that I would watch the fight again to see if there was any kind of evidence that would change my opinion of the seriousness of his supposed hand injury. So, that is what I did. I watched the fight again to see if any of Haye's reactions or if anything that was said in the corner would have lead me to change my mind. And as I have already stated I saw nothing to change my opinion and I did look and listen. And if Haye had stated that he was having serious hand problems I would have been proven wrong and accepted it as fact. Now, onto something totally amazing.

In one of your post you also informed me of the nature of my own hand problems. And I will be honest Dave I am not an orthopedic doctor and I broke my hand about 30 years or so ago. And if I were to be honest I could have shown you the bone that I had broken but I in no way could have called it by its proper medical term. So, here I was sitting in total amazement because this guy Dave on the internet, a man I have never met in the flesh, somehow knows more about my broken hand than I do. I thought, "Ok, maybe he is a doctor or just a pretty intelligent fellow like the ones I see on Jeopardy." With that said I decided I would do a little of my own research.

I started by looking at five or six different blow ups of the human hand and could find no reference to the metatarsal bone that you claimed, on several occasions, that Haye had broken. And in all honesty I found nothing about this particular bone in the human hand and for a very good reason. Because, Haye must have fractured his metatarsal bone when he was running from Valuev, or maybe he kicked him in the head, because a fractured metatarsal is sometimes miss diagnosed as a sprained ankle. Simply because it is not a tiny bone in the hand but actually a major bone in the human foot. Dave I have to ask you where did get your information? And you dared to question my credibility? And this really does not matter simply because it is a moot point and I will explain why.

The reason it is a moot point is because it does not matter if the metatarsal bone is in the hand or in the foot or for that matter if the bone is located on the back of the human head. The reason why it does not matter is that I did a little further research and found an interview that Haye had done with a British talk show host on line. During the interview Haye made no reference to the metatarsal bone in his foot but he did claim that he had broken one of the metacarpal bones in his right hand. And for those that don't know the metacarpal bone just happens to be one of the major bones in the hand that leads from the fingers to the wrist, and is considered a serious break. And guess what Dave? It just happens to be the exact same bone that I broke in my right hand some 30 years ago.

So, now that I believe that the scenario of our little debate has changed somewhat I really feel as if I can speak from personal experience. When I broke the metacarpal bone in my right hand it swelled to almost the size of a g****fruit. It was huge and it hurt like hell and I had little to no mobility in the hand. And than I see David Haye who claims that he broke the same bone running around the airport in England shaking hands with his fans and signing countless autographs with that same said broken hand. Now, you are all free to come to your own conclusions. And with that said there is nothing scientific to my opinions. It is simply a matter of Haye's actions during and after the fight that puts quite a bit of doubt in my mind on just how serious his hand problems actually were.

In closing I will say that I really don't care if anyone questions my credibility on this forum. The reason why I don't care is the fact I am not trying to write any kind of serious journalism on this forum. Nor I am defending any one in a court of law or even taking it really all that seriously. All I am doing is simply, for better or worse, observing events and stating my opinions based on the observations that I have made. And there really is no more to it than that. However, I would like to make one suggestion to Dave. If your going to question someone else's credibility you may want to start by taking that proverbial metatarsal foot bone out of your mouth and try doing a little better research.

[Earl-Hickey]

By typing all that dross you are showing that you do care lol

[Ravens Fan]

By typing all that dross you are showing that you do care lol

Nope, I just believe that if someone is going to attempt to state facts that go well beyond their own opinion they should at least attempt to get the facts correct. And that has nothing to do with my credibility. And just because I may be capable of stringing a few more sentences together than you are, there really is no need to be jealous. Because in my opinion jealousy really is a useless emotion.

[Earl-Hickey]

I'm so jealous I wish I could be just like you!

[Pirao]

Dave I really didn't think you would make this so easy but after a little research that I have done it is obvious that you have. And I will explain just how you have accomplished that but not before I regress for a moment.

I will start by stating that you questioned my objectivity and that is fair enough because I really don't like Haye. With that said, I thought I was giving Haye the benefit of the doubt by not jumping to conclusions. That is why I decided that I would watch the fight again to see if there was any kind of evidence that would change my opinion of the seriousness of his supposed hand injury. So, that is what I did. I watched the fight again to see if any of Haye's reactions or if anything that was said in the corner would have lead me to change my mind. And as I have already stated I saw nothing to change my opinion and I did look and listen. And if Haye had stated that he was having serious hand problems I would have been proven wrong and accepted it as fact. Now, onto something totally amazing.

In one of your post you also informed me of the nature of my own hand problems. And I will be honest Dave I am not an orthopedic doctor and I broke my hand about 30 years or so ago. And if I were to be honest I could have shown you the bone that I had broken but I in no way could have called it by its proper medical term. So, here I was sitting in total amazement because this guy Dave on the internet, a man I have never met in the flesh, somehow knows more about my broken hand than I do. I thought, "Ok, maybe he is a doctor or just a pretty intelligent fellow like the ones I see on Jeopardy." With that said I decided I would do a little of my own research.

I started by looking at five or six different blow ups of the human hand and could find no reference to the metatarsal bone that you claimed, on several occasions, that Haye had broken. And in all honesty I found nothing about this particular bone in the human hand and for a very good reason. Because, Haye must have fractured his metatarsal bone when he was running from Valuev, or maybe he kicked him in the head, because a fractured metatarsal is sometimes miss diagnosed as a sprained ankle. Simply because it is not a tiny bone in the hand but actually a major bone in the human foot. Dave I have to ask you where did get your information? And you dared to question my credibility? And this really does not matter simply because it is a moot point and I will explain why.

The reason it is a moot point is because it does not matter if the metatarsal bone is in the hand or in the foot or for that matter if the bone is located on the back of the human head. The reason why it does not matter is that I did a little further research and found an interview that Haye had done with a British talk show host on line. During the interview Haye made no reference to the metatarsal bone in his foot but he did claim that he had broken one of the metacarpal bones in his right hand. And for those that don't know the metacarpal bone just happens to be one of the major bones in the hand that leads from the fingers to the wrist, and is considered a serious break. And guess what Dave? It just happens to be the exact same bone that I broke in my right hand some 30 years ago.

So, now that I believe that the scenario of our little debate has changed somewhat I really feel as if I can speak from personal experience. When I broke the metacarpal bone in my right hand it swelled to almost the size of a g****fruit. It was huge and it hurt like hell and I had little to no mobility in the hand. And than I see David Haye who claims that he broke the same bone running around the airport in England shaking hands with his fans and signing countless autographs with that same said broken hand. Now, you are all free to come to your own conclusions. And with that said there is nothing scientific to my opinions. It is simply a matter of Haye's actions during and after the fight that puts quite a bit of doubt in my mind on just how serious his hand problems actually were.

In closing I will say that I really don't care if anyone questions my credibility on this forum. The reason why I don't care is the fact I am not trying to write any kind of serious journalism on this forum. Nor I am defending any one in a court of law or even taking it really all that seriously. All I am doing is simply, for better or worse, observing events and stating my opinions based on the observations that I have made. And there really is no more to it than that. However, I would like to make one suggestion to Dave. If your going to question someone else's credibility you may want to start by taking that proverbial metatarsal foot bone out of your mouth and try doing a little better research.

Hahaha, you owned him and his BS, well done.

[Ravens Fan]

I'm so jealous I wish I could be just like you!

I will take that as a compliment. So,thanks!!

[Dave Rado]

I started by looking at five or six different blow ups of the human hand and could find no reference to the metatarsal bone that you claimed

Typo on my part, sorry, but in my original post about it (here) I wrote, correctly that he broke a metacarpal, not a metatarsal. Not sure why I mis-spelt it subsequently, but I used the correct term in my original post.

And for those that don't know the metacarpal bone just happens to be one of the major bones in the hand that leads from the fingers to the wrist, and is considered a serious break.

Not necessarily. He almost certainly would have had what is known as "boxer's fracture", which is frequently not very serious, and usually doesn't require a cast. This is a fracture to the neck of the bone, which is the portion that connects the pinkie finger to the long shaft of the bone. See here:

Metacarpal neck fractures rarely require surgery. Although the acceptable degree of angulation is controversial, as much as 50-60° of angulation can be tolerated with little or no functional deficit. This level of angulation is especially true for boxer's fractures of the 5th metacarpal neck [i.e. pinkie]. Despite overall good functional results, this degree of angulation alters dorsal knuckle contour and may result in a tender palmar mass with heavy gripping. Though quite unusual, fracture rotation is an indication for surgical intervention.

Whereas it sounds like your break was to either the base or the shaft of one of the bones - and those are a lot more serious.

Edit: Here's a youtube video of someone with boxer's fracture. As you can see, it has been taped in much the same way as Haye's fingers were taped, the amount of swelling is similar, his hand is similarly mobile, and it isn't all that painful.

[Ravens Fan]

Typo on my part, sorry, but in my original post about it (here) I wrote, correctly that he broke a metacarpal, not a metatarsal. Not sure why I mis-spelt it subsequently, but I used the correct term in my original post.



Not necessarily. He almost certainly would have had what is known as "boxer's fracture", which is frequently not very serious, and usually doesn't require a cast. This is a fracture to the neck of the bone, which is the portion that connects the pinkie finger to the long shaft of the bone. See here:



Whereas it sounds like your break was to either the base or the shaft of one of the bones - and those are a lot more serious.

Edit: Here's a youtube video of someone with boxer's fracture. As you can see, it has been taped in much the same way as Haye's fingers were taped, the amount of swelling is similar, his hand is similarly mobile, and it isn't all that painful.

Typo? You went way beyond a typo because you continually referred to a bone that does even exist in the human hand. Also, you not only missed named it you also changed the definition by claiming the bone thatHaye broke was a tiny bone at the base of the fingers. When in reality the bone you should have been referring to was in fact the metacarpal which is far from "tiny" because it only happens to be the largest bone in the human hand. And again I am not a doctor but I not even positive those tiny bones exist that you spoke of. And those were your words so you should have called your "typo" for what it really was, and that would be a mistake.

You also claimed that you used the correct term of metacarpal in an earlier post. When in fact the correct term that you referred to was in a quote from someone named Strike that you used from another forum. So, in reality you never used the correct term unless you want to stand by that statement and claim you did when in fact it was Strike who used it. And I would also like to comment of what Strike had to say.

Strike mentioned the article about Haye's hand in the London Lite. I looked up the paper on line and found out that it is a free daily newspaper in London. I searched the papers on line archives and I found nothing aboutHaye 's x-rays. And just to be clear I am not saying that the article does not exist I just could not find it and I really did want to read it. With that said it seems that you are basing a lot of what you believe to be true on what Strike had to say. Strike also shared about his personal experience of dealing with his own "boxer's fracture." And that is understandable because I also referred to my own hand problems. However, the major difference is that I was not trying to prove the facts and was simply stating my opinion based on what I have experienced and what I have seen. And for me, it would take a little more than information found on two boxing forums to sway my opinion on medical facts. So, I decided to do a little research.

I looked at several medical websites, with names such as uptodateforpatients.com and emedicinehealth.com, for information on "boxer's fractures" and this is what I found as far as treatment is concerned,

Splinting or casting commonly is performed on all boxer's fractures that do not require immediate surgery. All splints and casts should be kept dry in order to maintain their strength. A complication that can be seen with this procedure is the cast becoming too tight from the swelling of the fracture. When this happens, you may feel pain under the cast or splint. Another sign is numbness or tingling in the fingers on thecasted hand. In addition, the finger may become cool to the touch. When this occurs, call your doctor or report to a hospital's emergency department immediately for evaluation.

Dave, I will admit as I already have stated there is no scientific research going on here. I am simply reading information and conveying it from a source that has much more information on hand problems than I would ever care to know. With that said, you said that "boxers fractures" did not need a cast or splint. However, according to all of the sites I read they all recommended that if the break did not need immediate surgery they all recommended a cast or splints. And as far I could tell Haye had neither. But, in all fairness to him he did show up on one of the shows wearing a heavy bandage on his hand. But it was not a cast and surely did not look like any kind of a splint by the way he was bending his wrist. I also found further information on boxer's fractures.

The web sites claimed that boxers fractures were in fact very common and accounted for a large percentage of hand injuries. However, and I will let the professionals words speak for themselves. This was an overview of boxer's fractures on the site webMD.com,

Boxer's Fracture Overview

A boxer's fracture is defined as a break through the bones of the hand that form the knuckles. Some doctors use the term "brawler's fracture" rather than "boxer's fracture" because a boxer is not likely to get this injury. The less well-trained brawlers have to learn how to punch without hurting themselves.

I found this fact to be rather interesting and a few of the other web sites gave even more of an insight by stating that it is a misnomer to even call this type of injury a "boxer's fracture." Simply because it is very uncommon that well trained professional boxers, which I believe Haye to be, would suffer from this type of injury. And Dave if you want a testament to this fact I suggest that you look no further than the link you sent from You Tube. That gentleman surely was not a boxer nor were the five other ones I watched on the site that were dealing with boxer's fractures. However, in all fairness to Haye I am sure there are boxer's out there that have suffered the fractures that carry their namesake. But, as it has been proven that it is uncommon and I really feel if I should again take a look at the fight itself.

It is common knowledge that Haye claimed that he had injured his hand in the second round. So, I figured I would watch that round a few more times to see if I could learn anything new. And does anyone want to venture a guess on just how many punches Haye actually threw in round two? Ok, no one wants to guess so I will tell you, he threw about fourteen left hands and exactly one right hand during the entire second round and it did land. So, Dave you proportions of lefts as compared to rights was already an issue in the second round because Haye did not throw that right hand until there was about twenty seconds left in the round. My point to all this is that Haye claimed he suffered this uncommon injury, because many of you claim that it is in fact a boxer's fracture, in a round where he only threw the injured hand one time. I am not saying that it wouldn't be impossible but what do you think the odds would be on that happening? I know if I was a betting man I wouldn't take the bet. And there is one other area I will touch on and I will let Haye's own words speak for themselves.

Since starting this little endeavor I have watched many of the interviews of Haye after his win against Valuev. And during those interviews, Haye has repeatedly said that he was in a lot of pain and was having trouble with his right hand and that the injury altered his game plan. Yet, with all that he was going through he said nothing about the pain or altering anything to his corner men. He did not mention it after the second round when he claims it happened. He also said nothing about the pain when his trainer talked to him at length about finding the range with his right hand between the fifth and sixth rounds. I just really find it hard to believe that if he was in as much pain as he claims he was that he would not have even bothered to mention it to his own trainer, why?

In closing I will admit that I am biased and not very open minded when it comes to David Haye. I also believe Haye does not deserve my objectivity when it comes to my opinion of him. And the reason I feel this way is because of the debacle between Haye and the Klitschko brothers. And I will say that I even gave Haye the benefit of the doubt with the Wlad pullout. But after what Happened with Vitali I accepted the fact that Haye is full of you know what. After all he bitched and moaned about money with Vitali and than he pulls out claiming he would some how be better off with Don King. At the time I really was asking myself if this was for real and I really questioned Haye's sanity. I mean does he really believe he will be better off financially by dealing with Don King? And than I realized that maybe it really isn't about the money at all. And just maybe it was after Haye talked all that BS about cleaning out the division and than maybe he realized that he could take an easier softer way to a paper title by signing with Don King. Than he could fight a champ in Valuev who was not really a threat. Simply because many believed that he had already lost to a fighter that was many years past his prime and should have already been in the Hall of Fame in Holyfield. And I truly believes, and also hope I am wrong, just as Ruiz and Valuev never have, that Haye will never fight one of the Klitschko's and will continue running through a cycle of bums and misfits while making money for Don King. And until he does otherwise I believe Haye is nothing more than a bunch of smoke and mirrors and does not deserve my respect.

[Boxing Scene]

Didn't Haye say that about the Klits then back out twice? Didn't Haye say that about Valuev then run the whole god damn time? I'm gonna laugh my ass off when Ruiz beats his ass.