A Floyd win over Moseley is better than ANY win on Pacs resume.

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  • jmard5
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    #81
    Better re-post this again.

    ------------------
    THE MANNY PACQUIAO WARS: ATTACK OF THE MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKS
    Posted on November 25, 2009.
    By Steve Lewis:

    After Manny Pacquiao’s dominant performance against top welterweight, Miguel Cotto, to capture a championship in a record-breaking 7th weight class, numerous Pacquiao skeptics became “converts.” Or at least, they were willing to finally give some due credit. Of course, you will never win them all completely because there will always be the few individuals who will, after the fact, give excuses and justifications as to why Pacquiao’s accomplishments need to be tempered down.

    Enter the Monday Morning Quarterbacks, those who share their hindsight analysis and their revisionist history. And as we all know, hindsight is 20/20. It is rather amusing, and often times irritating, to see these Monday Morning Quarterbacks vehemently and adamantly proclaim why Pacquiao will fall short in “fill-in-the-blank” endeavor. And when Pacquiao disproves them, and even surpasses all expectations, the excuses come pouring in.

    Now some Monday Morning Quarterbacks have agendas, and thus are typically in denial. Others are just plain contrarians, doing so for the sake of being contrarians, whose sole purpose is to attain notoriety by making outlandish remarks and wanting to merely see a reaction from the Pacquiao fan base.
    Prior to the Pacquiao-Lehlo Ledwaba title match, Pacquiao’s first fight in the U.S., no one gave Pacquiao a chance. Even the Las Vegas casinos did not bother taking wagers for this fight. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Pacquiao was a last minute replacement and Ledwaba had been preparing for a different kind of fighter.

    The same argument can be made for Pacquiao: he was a last minute replacement and was not training specifically for Ledwaba either. He probably wasn’t training much at all. Yet, he won.

    Prior to Pacquiao-Barrera I, Barrera was the heavy favorite, still ranked among the top pound-for-pound. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Barrera was already old, had battled Erik Morales, distractions in camp, had a metal plate in his head (years prior to the fight!), etc.

    Apparently, all those excuses did not prevent people from favoring Pacquiao before the fight. Again, hindsight is 20/20. Barrera evidently was not too old to still remain in the pound-for-pound rankings, evidently still had enough in the gas tank to subsequently win against the likes of Paulie Ayala, Erik Morales (again), Robbie Peden, and Rocky Juarez. But apparently, he was already too old for Pacquiao, a justification after the fact.

    Against Erik Morales, the critics marveled at how Morales “schooled” Pacquiao in their first encounter (though on most scorecards, Morales won by 2 points, but it was apparently a schooling). Hail the Pacquiao conqueror! Yet a mere 10 months later, less than a year, Morales would apparently go from Pacquiao conqueror to Grandma Moses. Results: KO wins for Pacquiao in the rematch and rubber match. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Morales was already old, washed-up, wars with Barrera, loss to Zahir Raheem.

    Again, how does one go from being a 130-lb hotshot/Pacquiao conqueror to Grandma Moses in a span of 10 months? And it’s not like Raheem “softened” Morales up for the rematch with Pacquiao. Raheem is a finesse fighter. He did not do serious damage to Morales. Rather, Morales took Raheem lightly and was caught looking ahead to the Pacquiao rematch, a thing that sometimes happens even to the best sports teams when facing a relative cream puff (i.e., Lakers losing to Hornets, USC losing to a Stanford or an Oregon State). Morales, they would say, was already washed up when he first fought Pacquiao. So what was the difference between the Morales in the 1st fight, and the Morales of the 2nd & 3rd fights? Some will say that Pacquiao got to use the gloves he wanted (coincidence?), but it seems apparent that Pacquiao learned from the 1st fight and showed who was superior. Critics constantly treat Pacquiao as if he had not improved or transformed to a better fighter, but he has.

    Against Juan Manuel Marquez, many would say Pacquiao lost those battles. The subjective scoring of judges can be a topic for another day, but the one objective thing that most Pacquiao critics fail to address is the admittedly erroneous scoring of judge Burt Clements in the 1st fight, who said he did not know that a 10-6 score could be awarded to a fighter who scores 3 knockdowns! Had he done so, like the two other judges did, Pacquiao would have won by majority decision. And Marquez should be thankful that the 3-Knockdown Rule was not in effect. Otherwise, the record would have shown a 1st Round TKO, and this discussion about his comeback in the later rounds would be moot.

    The Pacquiao-Marquez fights were close fights. Arguments can be made for both sides. The critics and the Monday Morning Quarterbacks will go ahead and treat these fights like it was a Joel Casamayor-Jose Santa Cruz robbery! It was not! They were close fights that could have gone either way. But ultimately, one who gets knocked down 4 times in a closely contested fight should not later complain about losing a close one.

    Against Oscar De La Hoya, the critics called it a farce, a circus, a total mismatch! Oscar was favored to win, the size advantage too great. These were their conventional wisdom’s before the fight. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Oscar was drained, he’s a shell of his former self, too dehydrated, etc. That apparently wasn’t foreseen before the fight! Once again, it’s after the fact. If Oscar improperly trained himself and overdid it, that’s Oscar’s fault, not Pacquiao’s.

    I am not sure why the critics also get on Pacquiao’s case about this catch-weight against Oscar. Pacquiao was essentially a super featherweight (nevermind the pit stop at lightweight against David Diaz) going against a former middleweight titlist. Did people really expect Pacquiao to go 4-5 weight classes up to meet Oscar? That would be ******. Oscar wanted the match, so they had to meet halfway at welterweight. And Pacquiao schooled” him. As I may have stated before, a former middleweight champ, only a year removed from hanging with then boxing’s best, Floyd Mayweather, has no business losing like that to a super featherweight. I can try to drop 15 pounds, but does that mean I should be losing to my 9-year old nephew in a session of fisticuffs? I better not!

    Against Ricky Hatton, many people were saying how Hatton is not weight drained and will be able to use his physical advantages against Pacquiao. We were supposed to get a bona fide rough-houser in Hatton. Result: KO win for Pacquiao. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Hatton was an overrated, glorified club fighter who just walks in face first. Again, many of these Monday Morning Quarterbacks say this after the fact. Prior to the fight, Hatton was considered a top 10 pound-for-pounder, the king and undefeated lineal champ at 140 lbs. Yet overnight, he goes from 140 lb king to overrated club fighter…a club fighter who apparently couldn’t be put away by the likes of boxing veterans Kostya Tszyu, Luis Collazo, Juan Luis Castillo, Juan Lazcano, and Paulie Malignaggi.

    And finally, against Miguel Cotto, despite Vegas favoring Pacquiao, many were saying how Pacquiao has never felt the power of a true welterweight, that Pacquiao may have bitten off more than he can chew. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Cotto was damaged goods, thanks to Antonio Margarito, cutting down to 145 lbs took its toll (though he has made 146 just fine in previous fights), and the one that is an obvious stab in the dark: Pacquiao must be on steroids!

    Cotto looked fine, did not look drained. In fact, he was doing a great job in the first couple of rounds. Cotto getting dropped by the 3rd and 4th rounds were unexpected by most. If the Margarito beatdown theory were to hold, it would be seen in the later rounds, not the early parts. And allegations of steroid use is pure grasping for straws. It would be one thing if it were feather-fisted fighters like Malignaggi who all of a sudden develop power in their punches. But Pacquiao always had “pop” in his punches, dating back to the lower weight classes, where Pacquiao scored knockout wins within 5 rounds or less in 15 of his first 25+ fights. He would also go on to floor Juan Manuel Marquez 3 times in one round, lift Fahsan 3K Battery off both feet with an uppercut, floored the triumvirate of Marquez, Morales and Barrera a total of around 11 times, not including several other close calls where they were saved by the bell or held up by the ropes. So it’s not like Pacquiao’s power came out of nowhere.

    In sum, Pacquiao is a great fighter, one we may never see again in the years to come. And we can always berate him before a fight, but when he disproves us, let’s give credit where credit is due, rather than going back in time and having the benefit of hindsight to nitpick after the fact. But again, can’t win them all. But conversely, the majority could care less about the fussiness of a few.

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    • LeeVanCleef
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      #82
      Originally posted by piye
      Fact.

      Moseley is an ATG and better than any of the fighters on Pac's resume, including Cotto.
      What not even De La Hoya? Great comedian, you.

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      • baracuda
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        #83
        Originally posted by PrettyBoy22
        Just because Pacquiao has fought better fighters, does not make him a greater fighter.

        lol.......fighting and beating better fighters?.....thats what makes a greater fighter , my friend.............

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        • odogg8121
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          #84
          Originally posted by piye
          Firstly we need everyone in this thread to grow up. Floydettes? *****s? *******s? Pacroids? what a load of non sense! If you are a fan of Pacman I can appreciate that just as I can appreciate being a fan of Floyd or any other fighter!! now Barrera was Still good when Pac beat him, but not as good as this Shane Moseley P4P the same applies for Morales whio managed to beat Pac ion there first fight. Pac fighting Diaz was a joke this is a fact, Hatton is a good win who is also on May's Resume and ODH is a good win who is also on May's resume. Pacs best win without doubt is Cotto! and Beating Moseley surpasses that! you can't just combine all of pac wins and compare them to one of Mayweathers!
          Ok OK the name callin is childish...but ur post is dead on. I thk Cotto is Pacs best win, I also thk todays Cotto loses to todays SSM. With that said if PBF fights and beats SSM as far as single wins go PBF wud have that one.

          Originally posted by BALLISTIC
          aside hatton and DLH pacmans face better fighters....
          he only reason ppl think that Pac has fought better fighters is cuz Pac's fight are wars...toe2toe..where PBF shuts his opponents down with his boxing skill instead of power...so it appears one way win I think they both win in good fashion....if ur a true boxing fan PBF is not a bore to watch and Pac is icing on the cake to watch his wars

          Originally posted by piye
          I'm sorry the level of intelligence here is disturbing calling a professional fighter and an ATG by most people's standards a fraud is silly.

          Pac nor Floyd is a 'Fraud' Pac is su****ious due to refusing a drug test and that is the only allegation I would throw about! Calling a fighter who has risen to the top of the sport a fraud is laughable!

          Floyd has a great Resume! Pac in my opinion has a slightly better Resume!

          Barrera, Morales, JMM, Oscar, Hatton, Cotto is amazing!

          But so is Corrales, Castillo, Zab, Oscar, Hatton and JMM! now if Floyd beats Shane then he has a better single win than any of Pacs Single wins and arguable a better resume!
          I agree...as far as single wins go

          Originally posted by tesla_power
          Well, you could always say that was a dehydrated Oscar. But that is hindsight.
          Pac-Oscar = 4 is to 1 in favor of Oscar
          Pbf-Jmm = 4 is to 1 in favor of Pbf

          Other than heart, what advantages did you give Jmm pre fight?
          height, reach, power, speed, age all went to Pbf. Boxing skill also but it can be debated. Inteligence can be debated. Skills can be debated. Experience can be debated. What else? Possibly cornermen. Any others you could think of?
          good post but u just extended this thread by like 10 pages lol

          Originally posted by KoPill
          Disagree with that. That was Oscar himself cherry picking a smaller man, that he thought he could have his way with. Oscar could have easily fought Antonio Margarito, but instead decided to pick on the little man. Manny Pacquiao had to move up 2 weight classes, and hope that his skills carried up with him. Which I have to give a lot credit to Ariza because he did a good job of bringing Manny up from LW, to WW, without Manny losing any of his strengths. If done wrong that could have been disastrous. As was with the case with Oscar. Oscar IMO bit off more then he could chew. #1 he hasn't made WW, since back when he fought Gatti, in 01. #2 his nutritionist did a *** up job with managing his weight and nutrition. #3 yeah he was probably dehydrated, but you can't blame Manny for that. He did what he had to do, which was to come in at the best shape that he could to win the fight.
          I have to agree here also, ODLH thgt he was gone stream roll Pac...thats wat he gets for that, on the flip side there was real dislike there for Oscar he all but had Manny signed then he went back on his word so that was a good fight and yes Oscar agreed to the weight so it is his fought


          Originally posted by PrettyBoy22
          Morales beat Pacquiao though. Marquez beat Pacquiao (he did, face it). Just because Pacquiao has fought better fighters, does not make him a greater fighter. Floyd has never been beat and he fought PRIME Hatton PRIME Gatti PRIME Corrales PRIME Castillo. These guys are not bums
          Hell no there are not bums and they were PBF most entertaining fights as far as toe2toe, with PBF thats as toe2toe as u get so they were great fights IMO

          Originally posted by piye
          I agree with that but neither was Cotto, Barrera or Morales, who could honestly tell me forget Pound for Pound and all of that nonsense that Shane would not beat the version pac fought of all of those guys? Shane beats everyone one of them! many because he is the bigger man fare enough but if you forget fictional pound for pound for a moment the facts are it's just a harder fight! Fact.
          Yep wayyyy harder than the guys pac fought....and my reason for saying that is none of Pac opponents have the head movement or hand speed that SSM has

          Originally posted by baracuda
          cotto 28,barrera 29, morales 29 jmm 1 29.......shane 38...............lol
          Originally posted by piye
          Why are you trying to turn it into a joke? have a conversation like an adult. Cotto was younger but we all know that fighters peak etc differently! and we all know Cotto was not the same after the Margarito fight. But in all honesty bar Cotto who would lose to shane in a rematch who on Pac mans resume beats Shane? no one.
          NO one but Cotto and that cuz he fought him already...present day IDK if Cotto cud pull off a Shane win again.

          Originally posted by schoolboy116
          just from reading the comments on this forum it seems that alot of posters here just really started watching boxing.
          THANKYOU AMEN!!!

          Originally posted by one-Punch
          that's funny, because I have always said floyd is wasted talent. This guy has the skill to fight anyone. He could easily go up 1 weight class and still do good. I always said if Floyd got 1 loss early in his career, He probably wouldn't of cared who he fought as much, and probably would of dominated Cotto, Mosley, and Marg already.
          Damn u make a lot of sense here, I thk if that "0" was gone already then he wud prob be more out going in terms of risky opponents...but he was calling out the big dogs wen he wasnt on top tho...

          Originally posted by AFighter4U
          They are gonna say that mosley is shot and past his prime 1yr not fighting made him rusty and etc. Either if it was Floyd or Pacquiao hater will discredit the fighters.
          Too late they already started lol

          Originally posted by baracuda
          everyone exept hoya......
          I hope ur not counting Diaz lmao

          Originally posted by piye
          I have noticed that many people on this forum are unable to have a rational conversation without resorting to nonsense.

          Who can honestly tell me that this shane at 38 would not beat both morales and Barrera at any stage in there career? no one can. of course it's a harder fight than anything on either guys resume. I mean I'm not giving Floyd credit for it! how can I? the fight has yet to be signed! but if it is the facts are there! the only fighter that stands a chance against shane in reality not one of this P4P non sense is cotto! who is not the same fighter! I wouldn't say he is shot but he has clearly deteriorated.
          Yes he wud, I say he knocks them out on top of it.

          Originally posted by piye
          Why is that sop far fetched? Pac could fight him! Barrera just fought Khan at 140 My point is even if it's because he is a bigger man a fight against Shane is harder!
          Cuz the Pac fans thk he only can fight at diff weights lol

          Comment

          • SkillspayBills
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            #85
            This statement is debateable. Mosley is an ATG/HOF indeed. However, Pac has a few of those on his resume as well.

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            • tornillo57
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              #86
              Originally posted by fabie
              The name, yes.

              But a 38 year old Mosley compared to say 5 to 10 years ago that Mayweather should have fought?

              NO.

              But Pacquiao fighting Morales, Barrera, Marquez in dizzying sequels? Then going up the weight ladder and beating Diaz, DLH, Hatton, Cotto (and hopefully Clottey) in also in a dizzying series of KOs, and TKOs?

              Yes, an unprecented feat since Henry Armstrong.

              And so resumés also isn't about the name but the timing, frequency and the fashion they were accomplished. That is a more thorough, complete and impressive than just the "name".

              I agree--------

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              • tornillo57
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                #87
                Originally posted by jmard5
                Better re-post this again.

                ------------------
                THE MANNY PACQUIAO WARS: ATTACK OF THE MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKS
                Posted on November 25, 2009.
                By Steve Lewis:

                After Manny Pacquiao’s dominant performance against top welterweight, Miguel Cotto, to capture a championship in a record-breaking 7th weight class, numerous Pacquiao skeptics became “converts.” Or at least, they were willing to finally give some due credit. Of course, you will never win them all completely because there will always be the few individuals who will, after the fact, give excuses and justifications as to why Pacquiao’s accomplishments need to be tempered down.

                Enter the Monday Morning Quarterbacks, those who share their hindsight analysis and their revisionist history. And as we all know, hindsight is 20/20. It is rather amusing, and often times irritating, to see these Monday Morning Quarterbacks vehemently and adamantly proclaim why Pacquiao will fall short in “fill-in-the-blank” endeavor. And when Pacquiao disproves them, and even surpasses all expectations, the excuses come pouring in.

                Now some Monday Morning Quarterbacks have agendas, and thus are typically in denial. Others are just plain contrarians, doing so for the sake of being contrarians, whose sole purpose is to attain notoriety by making outlandish remarks and wanting to merely see a reaction from the Pacquiao fan base.
                Prior to the Pacquiao-Lehlo Ledwaba title match, Pacquiao’s first fight in the U.S., no one gave Pacquiao a chance. Even the Las Vegas casinos did not bother taking wagers for this fight. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Pacquiao was a last minute replacement and Ledwaba had been preparing for a different kind of fighter.

                The same argument can be made for Pacquiao: he was a last minute replacement and was not training specifically for Ledwaba either. He probably wasn’t training much at all. Yet, he won.

                Prior to Pacquiao-Barrera I, Barrera was the heavy favorite, still ranked among the top pound-for-pound. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Barrera was already old, had battled Erik Morales, distractions in camp, had a metal plate in his head (years prior to the fight!), etc.

                Apparently, all those excuses did not prevent people from favoring Pacquiao before the fight. Again, hindsight is 20/20. Barrera evidently was not too old to still remain in the pound-for-pound rankings, evidently still had enough in the gas tank to subsequently win against the likes of Paulie Ayala, Erik Morales (again), Robbie Peden, and Rocky Juarez. But apparently, he was already too old for Pacquiao, a justification after the fact.

                Against Erik Morales, the critics marveled at how Morales “schooled” Pacquiao in their first encounter (though on most scorecards, Morales won by 2 points, but it was apparently a schooling). Hail the Pacquiao conqueror! Yet a mere 10 months later, less than a year, Morales would apparently go from Pacquiao conqueror to Grandma Moses. Results: KO wins for Pacquiao in the rematch and rubber match. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Morales was already old, washed-up, wars with Barrera, loss to Zahir Raheem.

                Again, how does one go from being a 130-lb hotshot/Pacquiao conqueror to Grandma Moses in a span of 10 months? And it’s not like Raheem “softened” Morales up for the rematch with Pacquiao. Raheem is a finesse fighter. He did not do serious damage to Morales. Rather, Morales took Raheem lightly and was caught looking ahead to the Pacquiao rematch, a thing that sometimes happens even to the best sports teams when facing a relative cream puff (i.e., Lakers losing to Hornets, USC losing to a Stanford or an Oregon State). Morales, they would say, was already washed up when he first fought Pacquiao. So what was the difference between the Morales in the 1st fight, and the Morales of the 2nd & 3rd fights? Some will say that Pacquiao got to use the gloves he wanted (coincidence?), but it seems apparent that Pacquiao learned from the 1st fight and showed who was superior. Critics constantly treat Pacquiao as if he had not improved or transformed to a better fighter, but he has.

                Against Juan Manuel Marquez, many would say Pacquiao lost those battles. The subjective scoring of judges can be a topic for another day, but the one objective thing that most Pacquiao critics fail to address is the admittedly erroneous scoring of judge Burt Clements in the 1st fight, who said he did not know that a 10-6 score could be awarded to a fighter who scores 3 knockdowns! Had he done so, like the two other judges did, Pacquiao would have won by majority decision. And Marquez should be thankful that the 3-Knockdown Rule was not in effect. Otherwise, the record would have shown a 1st Round TKO, and this discussion about his comeback in the later rounds would be moot.

                The Pacquiao-Marquez fights were close fights. Arguments can be made for both sides. The critics and the Monday Morning Quarterbacks will go ahead and treat these fights like it was a Joel Casamayor-Jose Santa Cruz robbery! It was not! They were close fights that could have gone either way. But ultimately, one who gets knocked down 4 times in a closely contested fight should not later complain about losing a close one.

                Against Oscar De La Hoya, the critics called it a farce, a circus, a total mismatch! Oscar was favored to win, the size advantage too great. These were their conventional wisdom’s before the fight. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Oscar was drained, he’s a shell of his former self, too dehydrated, etc. That apparently wasn’t foreseen before the fight! Once again, it’s after the fact. If Oscar improperly trained himself and overdid it, that’s Oscar’s fault, not Pacquiao’s.

                I am not sure why the critics also get on Pacquiao’s case about this catch-weight against Oscar. Pacquiao was essentially a super featherweight (nevermind the pit stop at lightweight against David Diaz) going against a former middleweight titlist. Did people really expect Pacquiao to go 4-5 weight classes up to meet Oscar? That would be ******. Oscar wanted the match, so they had to meet halfway at welterweight. And Pacquiao schooled” him. As I may have stated before, a former middleweight champ, only a year removed from hanging with then boxing’s best, Floyd Mayweather, has no business losing like that to a super featherweight. I can try to drop 15 pounds, but does that mean I should be losing to my 9-year old nephew in a session of fisticuffs? I better not!

                Against Ricky Hatton, many people were saying how Hatton is not weight drained and will be able to use his physical advantages against Pacquiao. We were supposed to get a bona fide rough-houser in Hatton. Result: KO win for Pacquiao. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Hatton was an overrated, glorified club fighter who just walks in face first. Again, many of these Monday Morning Quarterbacks say this after the fact. Prior to the fight, Hatton was considered a top 10 pound-for-pounder, the king and undefeated lineal champ at 140 lbs. Yet overnight, he goes from 140 lb king to overrated club fighter…a club fighter who apparently couldn’t be put away by the likes of boxing veterans Kostya Tszyu, Luis Collazo, Juan Luis Castillo, Juan Lazcano, and Paulie Malignaggi.

                And finally, against Miguel Cotto, despite Vegas favoring Pacquiao, many were saying how Pacquiao has never felt the power of a true welterweight, that Pacquiao may have bitten off more than he can chew. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Cotto was damaged goods, thanks to Antonio Margarito, cutting down to 145 lbs took its toll (though he has made 146 just fine in previous fights), and the one that is an obvious stab in the dark: Pacquiao must be on steroids!

                Cotto looked fine, did not look drained. In fact, he was doing a great job in the first couple of rounds. Cotto getting dropped by the 3rd and 4th rounds were unexpected by most. If the Margarito beatdown theory were to hold, it would be seen in the later rounds, not the early parts. And allegations of steroid use is pure grasping for straws. It would be one thing if it were feather-fisted fighters like Malignaggi who all of a sudden develop power in their punches. But Pacquiao always had “pop” in his punches, dating back to the lower weight classes, where Pacquiao scored knockout wins within 5 rounds or less in 15 of his first 25+ fights. He would also go on to floor Juan Manuel Marquez 3 times in one round, lift Fahsan 3K Battery off both feet with an uppercut, floored the triumvirate of Marquez, Morales and Barrera a total of around 11 times, not including several other close calls where they were saved by the bell or held up by the ropes. So it’s not like Pacquiao’s power came out of nowhere.

                In sum, Pacquiao is a great fighter, one we may never see again in the years to come. And we can always berate him before a fight, but when he disproves us, let’s give credit where credit is due, rather than going back in time and having the benefit of hindsight to nitpick after the fact. But again, can’t win them all. But conversely, the majority could care less about the fussiness of a few.
                I agree. I am a "convert", like the article says. He was a one-dimensional fighter years ago when he fought Marquez for the first time. Not anymore. He's better every time. He has become a monster. When DLH picked him for his retirement fight, everybody thought it would be a greedy abuse from DLH's part. I was one of them.

                Comment

                • rommel357
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                  #88
                  Originally posted by jmard5
                  better re-post this again.

                  ------------------
                  the manny pacquiao wars: Attack of the monday morning quarterbacks
                  posted on november 25, 2009.
                  By steve lewis:

                  After manny pacquiao’s dominant performance against top welterweight, miguel cotto, to capture a championship in a record-breaking 7th weight class, numerous pacquiao skeptics became “converts.” or at least, they were willing to finally give some due credit. Of course, you will never win them all completely because there will always be the few individuals who will, after the fact, give excuses and justifications as to why pacquiao’s accomplishments need to be tempered down.

                  Enter the monday morning quarterbacks, those who share their hindsight analysis and their revisionist history. And as we all know, hindsight is 20/20. It is rather amusing, and often times irritating, to see these monday morning quarterbacks vehemently and adamantly proclaim why pacquiao will fall short in “fill-in-the-blank” endeavor. And when pacquiao disproves them, and even surpasses all expectations, the excuses come pouring in.

                  Now some monday morning quarterbacks have agendas, and thus are typically in denial. Others are just plain contrarians, doing so for the sake of being contrarians, whose sole purpose is to attain notoriety by making outlandish remarks and wanting to merely see a reaction from the pacquiao fan base.
                  Prior to the pacquiao-lehlo ledwaba title match, pacquiao’s first fight in the u.s., no one gave pacquiao a chance. Even the las vegas casinos did not bother taking wagers for this fight. Result: Pacquiao tko win. Monday morning quarterbacks’ excuse: Pacquiao was a last minute replacement and ledwaba had been preparing for a different kind of fighter.

                  The same argument can be made for pacquiao: He was a last minute replacement and was not training specifically for ledwaba either. He probably wasn’t training much at all. Yet, he won.

                  Prior to pacquiao-barrera i, barrera was the heavy favorite, still ranked among the top pound-for-pound. Result: Pacquiao tko win. Monday morning quarterbacks’ excuse: Barrera was already old, had battled erik morales, distractions in camp, had a metal plate in his head (years prior to the fight!), etc.

                  Apparently, all those excuses did not prevent people from favoring pacquiao before the fight. Again, hindsight is 20/20. Barrera evidently was not too old to still remain in the pound-for-pound rankings, evidently still had enough in the gas tank to subsequently win against the likes of paulie ayala, erik morales (again), robbie peden, and rocky juarez. But apparently, he was already too old for pacquiao, a justification after the fact.

                  Against erik morales, the critics marveled at how morales “schooled” pacquiao in their first encounter (though on most scorecards, morales won by 2 points, but it was apparently a schooling). Hail the pacquiao conqueror! Yet a mere 10 months later, less than a year, morales would apparently go from pacquiao conqueror to grandma moses. Results: Ko wins for pacquiao in the rematch and rubber match. Monday morning quarterbacks’ excuse: Morales was already old, washed-up, wars with barrera, loss to zahir raheem.

                  Again, how does one go from being a 130-lb hotshot/pacquiao conqueror to grandma moses in a span of 10 months? And it’s not like raheem “softened” morales up for the rematch with pacquiao. Raheem is a finesse fighter. He did not do serious damage to morales. Rather, morales took raheem lightly and was caught looking ahead to the pacquiao rematch, a thing that sometimes happens even to the best sports teams when facing a relative cream puff (i.e., lakers losing to hornets, usc losing to a stanford or an oregon state). Morales, they would say, was already washed up when he first fought pacquiao. So what was the difference between the morales in the 1st fight, and the morales of the 2nd & 3rd fights? Some will say that pacquiao got to use the gloves he wanted (coincidence?), but it seems apparent that pacquiao learned from the 1st fight and showed who was superior. Critics constantly treat pacquiao as if he had not improved or transformed to a better fighter, but he has.

                  Against juan manuel marquez, many would say pacquiao lost those battles. The subjective scoring of judges can be a topic for another day, but the one objective thing that most pacquiao critics fail to address is the admittedly erroneous scoring of judge burt clements in the 1st fight, who said he did not know that a 10-6 score could be awarded to a fighter who scores 3 knockdowns! Had he done so, like the two other judges did, pacquiao would have won by majority decision. And marquez should be thankful that the 3-knockdown rule was not in effect. Otherwise, the record would have shown a 1st round tko, and this discussion about his comeback in the later rounds would be moot.

                  The pacquiao-marquez fights were close fights. Arguments can be made for both sides. The critics and the monday morning quarterbacks will go ahead and treat these fights like it was a joel casamayor-jose santa cruz robbery! It was not! They were close fights that could have gone either way. But ultimately, one who gets knocked down 4 times in a closely contested fight should not later complain about losing a close one.

                  Against oscar de la hoya, the critics called it a farce, a circus, a total mismatch! Oscar was favored to win, the size advantage too great. These were their conventional wisdom’s before the fight. Result: Pacquiao tko win. Monday morning quarterbacks’ excuse: Oscar was drained, he’s a shell of his former self, too dehydrated, etc. That apparently wasn’t foreseen before the fight! Once again, it’s after the fact. If oscar improperly trained himself and overdid it, that’s oscar’s fault, not pacquiao’s.

                  I am not sure why the critics also get on pacquiao’s case about this catch-weight against oscar. Pacquiao was essentially a super featherweight (nevermind the pit stop at lightweight against david diaz) going against a former middleweight titlist. Did people really expect pacquiao to go 4-5 weight classes up to meet oscar? That would be ******. Oscar wanted the match, so they had to meet halfway at welterweight. And pacquiao schooled” him. As i may have stated before, a former middleweight champ, only a year removed from hanging with then boxing’s best, floyd mayweather, has no business losing like that to a super featherweight. I can try to drop 15 pounds, but does that mean i should be losing to my 9-year old nephew in a session of fisticuffs? I better not!

                  Against ricky hatton, many people were saying how hatton is not weight drained and will be able to use his physical advantages against pacquiao. We were supposed to get a bona fide rough-houser in hatton. Result: Ko win for pacquiao. Monday morning quarterbacks’ excuse: Hatton was an overrated, glorified club fighter who just walks in face first. Again, many of these monday morning quarterbacks say this after the fact. Prior to the fight, hatton was considered a top 10 pound-for-pounder, the king and undefeated lineal champ at 140 lbs. Yet overnight, he goes from 140 lb king to overrated club fighter…a club fighter who apparently couldn’t be put away by the likes of boxing veterans kostya tszyu, luis collazo, juan luis castillo, juan lazcano, and paulie malignaggi.

                  And finally, against miguel cotto, despite vegas favoring pacquiao, many were saying how pacquiao has never felt the power of a true welterweight, that pacquiao may have bitten off more than he can chew. Result: Pacquiao tko win. Monday morning quarterbacks’ excuse: Cotto was damaged goods, thanks to antonio margarito, cutting down to 145 lbs took its toll (though he has made 146 just fine in previous fights), and the one that is an obvious stab in the dark: Pacquiao must be on steroids!

                  Cotto looked fine, did not look drained. In fact, he was doing a great job in the first couple of rounds. Cotto getting dropped by the 3rd and 4th rounds were unexpected by most. If the margarito beatdown theory were to hold, it would be seen in the later rounds, not the early parts. And allegations of steroid use is pure grasping for straws. It would be one thing if it were feather-fisted fighters like malignaggi who all of a sudden develop power in their punches. But pacquiao always had “pop” in his punches, dating back to the lower weight classes, where pacquiao scored knockout wins within 5 rounds or less in 15 of his first 25+ fights. He would also go on to floor juan manuel marquez 3 times in one round, lift fahsan 3k battery off both feet with an uppercut, floored the triumvirate of marquez, morales and barrera a total of around 11 times, not including several other close calls where they were saved by the bell or held up by the ropes. So it’s not like pacquiao’s power came out of nowhere.

                  In sum, pacquiao is a great fighter, one we may never see again in the years to come. And we can always berate him before a fight, but when he disproves us, let’s give credit where credit is due, rather than going back in time and having the benefit of hindsight to nitpick after the fact. But again, can’t win them all. But conversely, the majority could care less about the fussiness of a few.
                  Excellent post!
                  Last edited by rommel357; 01-21-2010, 11:43 AM.

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                  • Chups
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                    #89
                    Originally posted by jmard5
                    Better re-post this again.

                    ------------------
                    THE MANNY PACQUIAO WARS: ATTACK OF THE MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKS
                    Posted on November 25, 2009.
                    By Steve Lewis:

                    After Manny Pacquiao’s dominant performance against top welterweight, Miguel Cotto, to capture a championship in a record-breaking 7th weight class, numerous Pacquiao skeptics became “converts.” Or at least, they were willing to finally give some due credit. Of course, you will never win them all completely because there will always be the few individuals who will, after the fact, give excuses and justifications as to why Pacquiao’s accomplishments need to be tempered down.

                    Enter the Monday Morning Quarterbacks, those who share their hindsight analysis and their revisionist history. And as we all know, hindsight is 20/20. It is rather amusing, and often times irritating, to see these Monday Morning Quarterbacks vehemently and adamantly proclaim why Pacquiao will fall short in “fill-in-the-blank” endeavor. And when Pacquiao disproves them, and even surpasses all expectations, the excuses come pouring in.

                    Now some Monday Morning Quarterbacks have agendas, and thus are typically in denial. Others are just plain contrarians, doing so for the sake of being contrarians, whose sole purpose is to attain notoriety by making outlandish remarks and wanting to merely see a reaction from the Pacquiao fan base.
                    Prior to the Pacquiao-Lehlo Ledwaba title match, Pacquiao’s first fight in the U.S., no one gave Pacquiao a chance. Even the Las Vegas casinos did not bother taking wagers for this fight. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Pacquiao was a last minute replacement and Ledwaba had been preparing for a different kind of fighter.

                    The same argument can be made for Pacquiao: he was a last minute replacement and was not training specifically for Ledwaba either. He probably wasn’t training much at all. Yet, he won.

                    Prior to Pacquiao-Barrera I, Barrera was the heavy favorite, still ranked among the top pound-for-pound. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Barrera was already old, had battled Erik Morales, distractions in camp, had a metal plate in his head (years prior to the fight!), etc.

                    Apparently, all those excuses did not prevent people from favoring Pacquiao before the fight. Again, hindsight is 20/20. Barrera evidently was not too old to still remain in the pound-for-pound rankings, evidently still had enough in the gas tank to subsequently win against the likes of Paulie Ayala, Erik Morales (again), Robbie Peden, and Rocky Juarez. But apparently, he was already too old for Pacquiao, a justification after the fact.

                    Against Erik Morales, the critics marveled at how Morales “schooled” Pacquiao in their first encounter (though on most scorecards, Morales won by 2 points, but it was apparently a schooling). Hail the Pacquiao conqueror! Yet a mere 10 months later, less than a year, Morales would apparently go from Pacquiao conqueror to Grandma Moses. Results: KO wins for Pacquiao in the rematch and rubber match. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Morales was already old, washed-up, wars with Barrera, loss to Zahir Raheem.

                    Again, how does one go from being a 130-lb hotshot/Pacquiao conqueror to Grandma Moses in a span of 10 months? And it’s not like Raheem “softened” Morales up for the rematch with Pacquiao. Raheem is a finesse fighter. He did not do serious damage to Morales. Rather, Morales took Raheem lightly and was caught looking ahead to the Pacquiao rematch, a thing that sometimes happens even to the best sports teams when facing a relative cream puff (i.e., Lakers losing to Hornets, USC losing to a Stanford or an Oregon State). Morales, they would say, was already washed up when he first fought Pacquiao. So what was the difference between the Morales in the 1st fight, and the Morales of the 2nd & 3rd fights? Some will say that Pacquiao got to use the gloves he wanted (coincidence?), but it seems apparent that Pacquiao learned from the 1st fight and showed who was superior. Critics constantly treat Pacquiao as if he had not improved or transformed to a better fighter, but he has.

                    Against Juan Manuel Marquez, many would say Pacquiao lost those battles. The subjective scoring of judges can be a topic for another day, but the one objective thing that most Pacquiao critics fail to address is the admittedly erroneous scoring of judge Burt Clements in the 1st fight, who said he did not know that a 10-6 score could be awarded to a fighter who scores 3 knockdowns! Had he done so, like the two other judges did, Pacquiao would have won by majority decision. And Marquez should be thankful that the 3-Knockdown Rule was not in effect. Otherwise, the record would have shown a 1st Round TKO, and this discussion about his comeback in the later rounds would be moot.

                    The Pacquiao-Marquez fights were close fights. Arguments can be made for both sides. The critics and the Monday Morning Quarterbacks will go ahead and treat these fights like it was a Joel Casamayor-Jose Santa Cruz robbery! It was not! They were close fights that could have gone either way. But ultimately, one who gets knocked down 4 times in a closely contested fight should not later complain about losing a close one.

                    Against Oscar De La Hoya, the critics called it a farce, a circus, a total mismatch! Oscar was favored to win, the size advantage too great. These were their conventional wisdom’s before the fight. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Oscar was drained, he’s a shell of his former self, too dehydrated, etc. That apparently wasn’t foreseen before the fight! Once again, it’s after the fact. If Oscar improperly trained himself and overdid it, that’s Oscar’s fault, not Pacquiao’s.

                    I am not sure why the critics also get on Pacquiao’s case about this catch-weight against Oscar. Pacquiao was essentially a super featherweight (nevermind the pit stop at lightweight against David Diaz) going against a former middleweight titlist. Did people really expect Pacquiao to go 4-5 weight classes up to meet Oscar? That would be ******. Oscar wanted the match, so they had to meet halfway at welterweight. And Pacquiao schooled” him. As I may have stated before, a former middleweight champ, only a year removed from hanging with then boxing’s best, Floyd Mayweather, has no business losing like that to a super featherweight. I can try to drop 15 pounds, but does that mean I should be losing to my 9-year old nephew in a session of fisticuffs? I better not!

                    Against Ricky Hatton, many people were saying how Hatton is not weight drained and will be able to use his physical advantages against Pacquiao. We were supposed to get a bona fide rough-houser in Hatton. Result: KO win for Pacquiao. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Hatton was an overrated, glorified club fighter who just walks in face first. Again, many of these Monday Morning Quarterbacks say this after the fact. Prior to the fight, Hatton was considered a top 10 pound-for-pounder, the king and undefeated lineal champ at 140 lbs. Yet overnight, he goes from 140 lb king to overrated club fighter…a club fighter who apparently couldn’t be put away by the likes of boxing veterans Kostya Tszyu, Luis Collazo, Juan Luis Castillo, Juan Lazcano, and Paulie Malignaggi.

                    And finally, against Miguel Cotto, despite Vegas favoring Pacquiao, many were saying how Pacquiao has never felt the power of a true welterweight, that Pacquiao may have bitten off more than he can chew. Result: Pacquiao TKO win. Monday Morning Quarterbacks’ excuse: Cotto was damaged goods, thanks to Antonio Margarito, cutting down to 145 lbs took its toll (though he has made 146 just fine in previous fights), and the one that is an obvious stab in the dark: Pacquiao must be on steroids!

                    Cotto looked fine, did not look drained. In fact, he was doing a great job in the first couple of rounds. Cotto getting dropped by the 3rd and 4th rounds were unexpected by most. If the Margarito beatdown theory were to hold, it would be seen in the later rounds, not the early parts. And allegations of steroid use is pure grasping for straws. It would be one thing if it were feather-fisted fighters like Malignaggi who all of a sudden develop power in their punches. But Pacquiao always had “pop” in his punches, dating back to the lower weight classes, where Pacquiao scored knockout wins within 5 rounds or less in 15 of his first 25+ fights. He would also go on to floor Juan Manuel Marquez 3 times in one round, lift Fahsan 3K Battery off both feet with an uppercut, floored the triumvirate of Marquez, Morales and Barrera a total of around 11 times, not including several other close calls where they were saved by the bell or held up by the ropes. So it’s not like Pacquiao’s power came out of nowhere.

                    In sum, Pacquiao is a great fighter, one we may never see again in the years to come. And we can always berate him before a fight, but when he disproves us, let’s give credit where credit is due, rather than going back in time and having the benefit of hindsight to nitpick after the fact. But again, can’t win them all. But conversely, the majority could care less about the fussiness of a few.
                    Nice post!

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                    • Chups
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                      #90
                      Mosley is a HOF but NOT an ATG. Look at his resume folks, he's not better than DLH.

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