The Thinking Man’s Thread on Manny v Floyd .....

[S.G.]

I understand your point and it's more or less an exaggerated version of my thoughts. I don't think Mayweather will make easy work of Pacquiao by a long shot but I think he will exploit Manny's faults better than vice versa simply because Pacquiao has more faults. His overzealousness will be his downfall in this fight.

[tacoboxer]

There is a big difference between rushing in LESS and defense. I agree that Pac has improved his boxing skills under Roach... However, Pac no more thinks about defense than a military general considers diplomatic negotiations as a means to end a war... It’s not his job and even if he tried, his effectiveness would be negligible. Pac knows nothing of defense and for you to argue that as one of his strengths is an absurd argument. It’s not a slam just a fact…. his skills have shown that he hasn’t needed to worry about defense to become the fighter he is today. Remember this is an honest debate…. I give to Pac what Pac deserves…. Give to Floyd what he deserves (speed, extraordinary counter punching and laser accuracy). Keep emotion out of the argument…. It would be wrong for me to say Floyd is the greatest fighter at this time in all aspects of the fight game… has not. For you to argue Pac’s superior defensive skills is a slippery slope. Pac will get hit and hit effectively make no mistake about it….. The only thing to be determined is how much…. and Manny has control over that by choosing to fight a smart fight by not jumping in. If he can keep the warrior under control he can win. The question is will he….. I think not.

[tacoboxer]

perfectly put!!! All these "Pac will destroy Floyd..." OR "Floyd will make easy work of Pac.." are not students of the sweet science.... debating with them is exhausting.

[tacoboxer]

I didn't bother to read your whole rant.

you basic argument is that floyd = skilled and pac = unskilled.

here's the counter argument:

pac is a different fighter than when he used to be at 130 lbs. is he still aggressive? yes, but he picks his spots better and his right hand is as good as his left now.

Wrong…. The Argument: Mayweather = Defensive and Counter PunchingTactitian….. Pac=Warrior with speed and power….. Pac will need to bring more smarts to the ring to win…. The warrior Pac is not enough to win against a guy who gives you very few openings and can counter punch you all night long when you jump in. Next time….. take time to read before you post….. or get off the thread… you can debate with all the other monkeys out there that want to jock their fighter….NOT HERE!

[tacoboxer]

Floyd will not be able to counter Pacquiao as effectively as he has everyone else he's ever faced. The reason is simple. Floyd is a fundamental fighter and Pac is anything but.

Floyd relies on basic boxing principles to succeed. Make his opponent miss and take advantage when they are off balance and out of position. But that wont work on Pacquiao because of his growth since the 2nd Marquez fight. He no longer loads up looking for 1 hit kill shots so he is never truly off balance. Pacquiao still has the ability to throw and land effectively in positions where no other fighter in the world would be able to cover up and defend...let alone launch an offensive.

Your lack of credit for Floyds speed and counterpunching accuracy is absurd. Manny does throw from difficult angles but if Marquez could hit him.... I find it hard to believe you think Floyd wont. If Floyd wanted to stay behind the jab all night he could (I believe if Cotto wanted to stay behind his jab.... he would have been in the fight longer) and win the fight. Better jab Floyd or Cotto.... Floyd. Better boxer Floyd or Cotto.... Floyd. Faster hands Floyd or Cotto.... Floyd. Better defense Floyd or Cotto.... Floyd. Be careful not to dismiss Floyd too quickly... Im certainly not dismissing Manny but if he fights the same fight as he did with Cotto.... its all over for him!

[tesla_power]

Good points but I disagree on the killer pac.

The killer pac was done after the 1st Morales fight. He takes his time now and does not rush his attacks.

Why do you think he let Cotto just backpedal in the late rounds? Only in the 12th rounds, did he really try to corner Cotto. Before that was a stalking but controlled Pac. He was wary that Cotto could catch him lunging in. Just remember instead of going after Cotto full gear, he motioned to the ref about Cotto's action. Now that is thinking.

Why do you think he let Cotto hit him in the body? he was playing with Cotto's mind. This was against Roach's instruction but you can see Pac is thinking more on his own.

Why do you think Dlh lasted until the eight? Because pac was constantly moving while throwing because he is thinking of Dlh's left hook. He also slack off after a combo looking at Dlh and thinking if he is laying a trap.

There are several more examples but I think this are the more recognizable ones.

[Malius]

I posted this in another thread but I have edited a little.

Although I do have Mayweather a strong favourite, you cannot say its 100% to Mayweather, I personally would say 65- 70% Mayweather. His defence is currently the best in the world, however Pacman I believe is a better fighter than he was 2 years ago, his speed and power will give him a decent chance.

He needs to work the body of Mayweather and not go head hunting, Mayweather is awesome at frustrating people with his head movement. If he can keep his cool and not let mayweather counter him all night he has a chance.

[Ray*]

Don’t reply to this tread if you can’t form a reasonable counter argument.... all this Manny destroying Floyd, blah,blah,blah..... Floyd easily handling Manny blah, blah,blah, IT'S ALL BS!!
If you don’t have enough smarts to give each fighter the credit they deserve for their body of work inside the ring... then keep your thoughts to yourself!
I see Manny carrying the fight early like a lot of quality fighters do against Floyd.... (Castillo, Corrales, Judah, De La Hoya all took the fight to Floyd early and appeared to test Floyd....) I give Manny the edge in speed over all the above and with the power he has carried with him as he moved up in weight class it would be reasonable for Pac to look for an early flash knock-down if the straight left can get through the Mayweather defense early. How Floyd handles early adversity will determine the outcome….. Cotto couldn’t handle the unimaginable…. being knocked down by Manny once, then being knocked down and hurt by Manny again… Cotto lost his cool and looked to impose his power and size on Manny and we all know the rest…. (Oh and by the way this wasn’t the first time Cotto wilted under the pressure of the bright lights, same with De La Hoya, same with Hatton).
At this point I'm going to give Floyd the credit he deserves for being comfortable and in control on the biggest of stages. He has always risen to the occasion in the biggest fights of his life and didn’t let the pressure get to him(Hernandez, Manfredy, Corrales, Castillo, Gatti, Judah and his nut punch, Hatton, De La Hoya were all supposed to be tests of Mayweather's fortitude and he delivered overwhelmingly in all)..... We have no reason to expect different on Mar 13... Until he shows he can’t handle the immense pressure of the big stage and bright lights, it’s foolish to just assume he won’t be able to handle the pressure on March 13. Having said that, Floyd handles the early flash knockdown and/or weathers the Pac onslaught early.
Here is where potential problems start for Manny. Manny is a warrior (Floyd a tactician…) When Manny smells blood in the water he goes in for the kill. If he senses a K.O. he is relentless in his pursuit. This is who Manny is… this is why people love him and why he is such a popular fighter, and deservedly so! I believe Manny’s greatest attribute has the potential to be his Achilles Heel and the beginning of the end for Manny! For Manny to come away with a victory he will need to suppress the warrior and fight a smart fight. Brute strength and power and speed are all attributes that Manny possesses in bunches but all that will be for naught without a well thought out game plan and the discipline to execute it on fight night. Manny’s talent with poor game execution spells a Floyd victory…. Sorry Manny. To think Manny and all his attributes can beat Floyd Mayweather at the peak of his career without a disciplined thought out AND well executed game plan is absurd. Manny will have to get up early (which he will )and then suppress the warrior instinct by having Mayweather come to him, using his speed and difficult angles to counter Floyds limited attack. I beliveve Manny has enough speed to counter Floyd. If Manny can forget about getting the K.O. (it will not happen with a defensive focused Mayweather) he can walk away with a decision against Floyd. Castillo played the executioner and lost, Corrales played the executioner and lost, Gatti was an executioner and knew nothing else (he ended up playing the role of punching bag against Mayweather ), Hatton played the executioner and lost, De La Hoya tried to play the role of executioner in his fight with Floyd instead of staying behind his jab and boxing Floyd (In my opinion he would have won the fight if he had).
A Tiger can’t change its stripes… and in my opinion neither will Manny change what has gotten him this far. When Manny gets confident he opens up his attack with no thought to defense. When this happens Manny will get hit again and again and again. He will jump in similar to Hatton and even though Mayweather doesn’t possess dominating power, there is none better on the planet at using his opponent’s weaknesses to defeat them. Manny has no defense, and anybody who is a Pac fan and says that defense is one of his best attributes is full of s#!^....
Manny (unable to stop himself) comes forward the whole fight to his detriment. Another victory to the P4P King and best fighter of this era.
Then comes the rematch…

There is a reason why your thread has only attract two pages, You cant debate the Mayweather/Pacquiao fight without people resort to Steroids,Gay,Running,Catchweight,Fraud,Weightdrain ,Cherrypicking etc

Taking that out of the equation and they have nothing left thats why you have got any replies since yesterday.

[Ray*]

The JMM second fight really bothers me, Apart from the KD Pac couldnt actually force himself on JMM, JMM timed and tagged Pac everytime he got reckless/close.

Now Pac could have been drained against JMM in the second fight but he still look lost and resort to feinting side to side to put off JMM who was having none of it.

[menoari]

If you see Pac winning the early rounds and Floyd adjusting in the mid to later rounds, how do you see Floyd boxing in those mid to later rounds? It appears that you imply Floyd will be aggressively looking to counter an equally aggressive Pac hence the importance of speed and counterpunching accuracy.

That sounds like the JMM fights. While Floyd is probably a better and faster counterpuncher than JMM, Pac now also sports a better right hand IMO compared to his JMM fights. Wouldn't this make Pac harder to successfully counter even by a faster and better counterpuncher? Additionally, Pac recently showed he could take Cotto's punches. This may now mean that while Floyd can hit him, Pac can sacrifice the hit to gain an opening for his own punches.

Floyd can win this fight no doubt (never saw a mega fight where one guy has absolutely no chance to win) but I think that the actual winner here will surprise us by doing things that he hasn't done or done too well in the past. It will take that kind of difference to win.