Pacquiao's success raises questions

[rao007]

What are you talking about?
I'm just breaking down your specific comebacks as to show you why it doesn't hold 100%.

For Pac: New training methods which is aided by understanding your body chemistry form top people in the Science community who can be paid to give you tips on what is going on with your body...may seem to "Old School" people mind-boggling, and when they don't understand how someone is improving, they blame Good Old Steroids because that is what has been associated with improving ones performance by leaps and bounds.


We have athletes go to Sports Clinic all over the country...like in Arizona...where you can pay top trainers and Doctors to look your body over and give you programs on how to improve yourself all while being monitored in your progress.



Now take an Old School guy who sticks with eating and training in the same old gym.

Okay, I completely apologize.. sounded like a jerk. Heh. Carry on.

[Benny Leonard]

Okay, I completely apologize.. sounded like a jerk. Heh. Carry on.

Now I'm may be off, but as of now:


I'm basically calling Floyd and Sr. and many of the "Old School" people ignorant on the topic.

Sometimes it is Steroids/PEDs...but other times it is improving ones knowledge of how to train your specific body under the guidance of top trainers and Doctors who carefully monitor your progress under well studied training modern routines.

Old School people used to run in boots...even Floyd said this is what his Dad had him do when he was younger...Sr. even made Hatton do this..."OLD SCHOOL"...but Floyd ended up going new school (like the military did) and use tennis/running shoes. One simple improvement helps your feet, keeps you healthy so that you can run more and improve.

Now add in what we know now compared to yesterday...now we are driving and not running anymore.


Ariza even said it himself: he works with a team of people who work for Pac.

Now, sometimes, you can do both PEDs and new methods together, but you can also do it clean...especially if your competition is still on a lower level of understanding. The only time you may need to do both is when the entire field is doing the same thing so you may almost have to do it. Kind of like the Olympic speculation but who knows what’s what. I can't say...not on that level.

Of course, we can also throw in untapped potential. Pac was eating what for years?
How was he training and who was training him?

Roach trained him, sure...but Roach trains boxers more so than modern athletes. That's why I like this part of Roach as well: He is willing to be humble and bring in "new" school thinking because boxers are athletes...modern athletes...and you either keep improving or you fall behind.

Sr. can stick with technical fundamentals in boxing...nothing wrong with that especially since many forgot the "Art of boxing"...but when it comes to understanding the human body, understanding each athlete is different...understanding "modern" ways of doing things...he falls behind.

[PirateGorilla]

Pacquiao has been consistent in his success.

112 KO Sasakul
122 TKO Ledwaba
126 TKO Barrera weighed in 136 on fight night in 2003
130 KO Morales weighed in 144 on fight night in 2006
135 KO Diaz weighed in 147 on fight night in 2008
147 TKO DLH weighed in 148.5 on fight night in 2008
140 KO Hatton weighed in 148 on fight night in 2009

Where is the significant weight increase people are talking about? In a span of 6 years he's gained 12 pounds and from Morales 2 to Hatton 4 pounds in 3 years.

Clottey makes 146 and still look ripped as **** at 170 on fight night, is he on roids? Floyd was out of the ring for 2 years and he looks better than when he left off.

How about the improvements in Pacquiao and the fact that he's not straining himself and putting on 14 pounds after weigh-ins help?

[namme]

I have seen almost every pacman fight from 112 pounds to now. Here is why i think it is likely he is on perfomance enhancement drugs:

1- Physique: Just recently Juan Manuel Marquez moved up alot of weight to fight Mayweather, Marquez unlike Pacman retained some water weight. He was muscular but not ripped as pacman who now looks like bruce lee. Boxer Kermit Cintron has said there is no way without some perfomance enhancement drugs can you gain over 20 pounds of muscle in such a short time. Even Duran, De La Hoya, and Mayweather didnt look that ripped.

2- He seems to get stronger with weight. If you look at pacman he was actually knock down 5 times at 126 and lower. He was knocked out twice by torrecampo and Singurat 3k batter, and was taken down by a stiff jab by Hussein at 122. But now he is willing to allow Cotto give him free body shots on the ropes. Cotto a man who can knockout a natural welter with ONE body shot and couldnt do any damage to pac with dozens. He had to go 12 rounds with Marquez twice, Larios, and Morales (1st fight) but now he can physically dominate naturally bigger fighters as David Diaz, De la hoya, Hatton, and Cotto.

3-Stamnia - Most fighters show fatigue and less sting in their punches in the late rounds. But pacman never shows any signs of that. in fact, the volume of punches get hige often. People say steroids hamper stamina for boxing. WRONG. If steroids don't help stamina why would pitchers like Clemens and Pettite take them if they decrease and not increase pitches thrown and innings pitched. In addition, these drugs help increase recovery time. Most importantly, pacman has been active for 15 years as a fighter and he never shows any effects of his tough fights. His energy seems to be get higher even after numerous slugfests. After Duran fought Hagler in a 15 round battle he had nothing left for Thomas Hearns and was knocked out in 2 rounds.

4-Head- His head seems to get bigger in proporation to his body. These are signs of HGH and other substances.

5- Designer Steroids can't be Traced- The fact is synthethic steroids as THG, Madol and Genabol can't be traced. There are also synthetic stimulants that can't be traced. So of course he hasen't tested positive.

6-Never heard of Steroids: Manny has stated he never heard of steroids. That is both humorous and preposterous at once. I guess when they do his blood and urine drug tests he thinks they are checking if he takes Flinstones Vitamins for kids or if he takes energy bars. Of course, HE KNOWS. They even have to sign papers with random drug tests. That sounds very defensive to say i never heard of steroids.

7-No Wear Down: All fighters are human after numerous fights they start to show age and wear down. Pacman has been active for 15 years as a fighter and he never shows any effects of his tough fights. His energy seems to be get higher even after numerous slugfests. After Duran fought Hagler in a 15 round battle he had nothing left for Thomas Hearns and was knocked out in 2 rounds. Even Hagler after the Duran fight looked shaky with Roldan early on. He even had his only official knockdown on the 1st round. Although some will argue it was half slip and half punch. Pacman has had tough wars with Morales, Marquez, Sanchez, Barreras etc., yet he seems to be impervious to slowing down as a fighter. Hagler a very conditioned fighter definitely started to slow down after his fights with Duran, Hearns, and John Beast Mugabi. Hagler was very slow in the Leonard fight due to the constant wars he had.

8- Top Rank doesent sue for Libel or Slander: Floyd Mayweather Jr and his father both have accused pacman of taking perfomance enhancing drugs. Bob Arum is an attorney why wouldnt he seek relief and damages for his top prize fighter's reputation being questioned? Because if top rank sues and they testify and its proven later that manny took drugs than they can go to jail for perjury. Some will say he wants to fight mayweather so he wont sue but other fighters as Kermit Cintron have already accused him. NO LAWSUIT yet.

9-Philippine culture: This dosent sound politically correct but i know the culture, I been to the philippines. I can speak some tagalog and cebuano. The country has a long history of corruption, scandals, and political wrong doing. The manila airport is the only major airport that charges a terminal fee for using their facility. Hotels are known to trump up charges on visitors. Manny knows the culture wells. The motivation is to make millions of dollars by cheating. If Manny stays at Featherweight and lower he wont make $10-$20 Million fight. He at best will be like Chris John of Indonesia a featherweight making at most $1 million a fight.

10- Defies Reality: Unfortunately, we have seen boxers as Vargas, Jones, Toney, Mosley get caught. We were foolish to believe that Mcgwire and Sosa hit 70 home runs and 66 home runs due to hard work and talent. Than Barry Bonds breaks the record a few years later, a record that couldnt be touch for nearly 40 years. Now we have a boxer that is Henry Armstrong with shocking power. When De La Hoya fought Hopkins at 160 he was KOd with one body punch. THe Great Jose Napoles couldnt handle the naturally bigger Monzon, Arguello couldnt finish Pryor on his quest for his 4th weight division crown. Now we have a Flyweight knocking out welters SO EASy. He is like a God. But he didnt look like a god before at 122. He is not a god. He is JUST JUICED UP.

If only this were not an internet thing and you saying that in front of people, I would be the first one to punch your face with that kind of accusation! YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE AN OUNCE OF EVIDENCE AND ALL YOU HAVE ARE MERE SPECULATIONS AND YOU SAY with all confidence that "PACQUIAO IS JUICED UP?"

However, since we're MERELY saying what we want to say here, I WOULD ALSO AGREE, 100%, REGARDING THE ACCUSATIONS AND SPECULATIONS HERE, THAT FLOYD,jr IS INDEED GAY!

Man, you're one of the reasons why evil

[burlyman]

I have seen almost every pacman fight from 112 pounds to now. Here is why i think it is likely he is on perfomance enhancement drugs:

1- Physique: Just recently Juan Manuel Marquez moved up alot of weight to fight Mayweather, Marquez unlike Pacman retained some water weight. He was muscular but not ripped as pacman who now looks like bruce lee. Boxer Kermit Cintron has said there is no way without some perfomance enhancement drugs can you gain over 20 pounds of muscle in such a short time. Even Duran, De La Hoya, and Mayweather didnt look that ripped.

Not a valid comparison, there is a big difference between suddenly jumping a couple of weight classes like Marquez did and doing it gradually like Pacquiao did. Another poster has has already revealed Pac's weight going back the past few years, it's not a 20 pound jump within less than a year.

2- He seems to get stronger with weight. If you look at pacman he was actually knock down 5 times at 126 and lower. He was knocked out twice by torrecampo and Singurat 3k batter, and was taken down by a stiff jab by Hussein at 122. But now he is willing to allow Cotto give him free body shots on the ropes. Cotto a man who can knockout a natural welter with ONE body shot and couldnt do any damage to pac with dozens. He had to go 12 rounds with Marquez twice, Larios, and Morales (1st fight) but now he can physically dominate naturally bigger fighters as David Diaz, De la hoya, Hatton, and Cotto.

Pac has gotten proportionally stronger with the increase in weight, as expected, he has not gotten dramatically stronger. He did to De La Hoya and Cotto the exact same thing he did to Barrera and Morales. It's not like he suddenly developed freakish one punch knockout power (Hatton walking into a power shot being an outlier).

Second, steroids won't cover up a weak chin. Pac's taken some shots through the years and he's always had a good beard. Some posters just never noticed it.

3-Stamnia - Most fighters show fatigue and less sting in their punches in the late rounds. But pacman never shows any signs of that. in fact, the volume of punches get hige often. People say steroids hamper stamina for boxing. WRONG. If steroids don't help stamina why would pitchers like Clemens and Pettite take them if they decrease and not increase pitches thrown and innings pitched. In addition, these drugs help increase recovery time. Most importantly, pacman has been active for 15 years as a fighter and he never shows any effects of his tough fights. His energy seems to be get higher even after numerous slugfests. After Duran fought Hagler in a 15 round battle he had nothing left for Thomas Hearns and was knocked out in 2 rounds.

Steroids build up muscular power, this is why sprinters like Ben Johnson took them. I haven't heard of too many marathoners getting caught for taking steroids, nor cyclists (They prefer EPO, an altogether different PED)

As to why aging pitchers take steroids, its simple, as we age, we produce less natural testosterone, hence a decline in muscle mass, they are using steroids in an attempt to hold off the ravages of time. Your comparison just doesn't hold up at all.

4-Head- His head seems to get bigger in proporation to his body. These are signs of HGH and other substances.

5- Designer Steroids can't be Traced- The fact is synthethic steroids as THG, Madol and Genabol can't be traced. There are also synthetic stimulants that can't be traced. So of course he hasen't tested positive.

6-Never heard of Steroids: Manny has stated he never heard of steroids. That is both humorous and preposterous at once. I guess when they do his blood and urine drug tests he thinks they are checking if he takes Flinstones Vitamins for kids or if he takes energy bars. Of course, HE KNOWS. They even have to sign papers with random drug tests. That sounds very defensive to say i never heard of steroids.

Now you are just reaching.

7-No Wear Down: All fighters are human after numerous fights they start to show age and wear down. Pacman has been active for 15 years as a fighter and he never shows any effects of his tough fights. His energy seems to be get higher even after numerous slugfests. After Duran fought Hagler in a 15 round battle he had nothing left for Thomas Hearns and was knocked out in 2 rounds. Even Hagler after the Duran fight looked shaky with Roldan early on. He even had his only official knockdown on the 1st round. Although some will argue it was half slip and half punch. Pacman has had tough wars with Morales, Marquez, Sanchez, Barreras etc., yet he seems to be impervious to slowing down as a fighter. Hagler a very conditioned fighter definitely started to slow down after his fights with Duran, Hearns, and John Beast Mugabi. Hagler was very slow in the Leonard fight due to the constant wars he had.

That is a very subjective interpretation. I could take what you said and apply it to Muhammad Ali, he took some beatings from Frazier and Foreman, yet he was still a monster in the Thrilla. Are you saying he was on steroids too?

8- Top Rank doesent sue for Libel or Slander: Floyd Mayweather Jr and his father both have accused pacman of taking perfomance enhancing drugs. Bob Arum is an attorney why wouldnt he seek relief and damages for his top prize fighter's reputation being questioned? Because if top rank sues and they testify and its proven later that manny took drugs than they can go to jail for perjury. Some will say he wants to fight mayweather so he wont sue but other fighters as Kermit Cintron have already accused him. NO LAWSUIT yet.

Correction, Top Rank and Manny Pacquiao haven't sued YET. If Senior keeps making his asinine insinuations, especially without even a hint of a rumor of evidence to back up his claims, you can bet that a lawsuit will be forthcoming.

9-Philippine culture: This dosent sound politically correct but i know the culture, I been to the philippines. I can speak some tagalog and cebuano. The country has a long history of corruption, scandals, and political wrong doing. The manila airport is the only major airport that charges a terminal fee for using their facility. Hotels are known to trump up charges on visitors. Manny knows the culture wells. The motivation is to make millions of dollars by cheating. If Manny stays at Featherweight and lower he wont make $10-$20 Million fight. He at best will be like Chris John of Indonesia a featherweight making at most $1 million a fight.

And this non sequitor is proof that Manny is on steroids?

I would call this nothing more than a guilt by association smear but even that would be too classy to describe your assertion.

10- Defies Reality: Unfortunately, we have seen boxers as Vargas, Jones, Toney, Mosley get caught. We were foolish to believe that Mcgwire and Sosa hit 70 home runs and 66 home runs due to hard work and talent. Than Barry Bonds breaks the record a few years later, a record that couldnt be touch for nearly 40 years. Now we have a boxer that is Henry Armstrong with shocking power. When De La Hoya fought Hopkins at 160 he was KOd with one body punch. THe Great Jose Napoles couldnt handle the naturally bigger Monzon, Arguello couldnt finish Pryor on his quest for his 4th weight division crown. Now we have a Flyweight knocking out welters SO EASy. He is like a God. But he didnt look like a god before at 122. He is not a god. He is JUST JUICED UP.

There are two ways of looking at this, you can think like Floyd Mayweather Sr that Manny Pacquiao is just a blown up featherweight, who must be on some PED, or you can approach this like Nazim Richardson and realize that Pacquiao is actually a natural lightweight or jr welterweight who was forced to fight many of his great fights while weight drained.

Occam's razor holds true in this case I would imagine.

[aether]

can't believe the ts even spent all that time justifying how Pacquiao "could be" using steroids..

as stated a millions times, there is no proof. so drop the ped ****.

talks like this is detrimental to the sport, not only one fighter. guys who aren't even fans of pacquiao should be outraged with this whole steroids issue.

it is one thing to not give credit to a fighter you never liked, it is another to accuse him of cheating.

a lot who are supporting this issue based their claims on the fact that pacquiao was able to rise through the weights. some refuted this by showing pacquiao's fighting weights.... then the idiots came out with claims that some PED's don't let you gain weight... these *******s present a point that completely contradicts their original claims

bottom line. this **** needs to die.

[Benny Leonard]

can't believe the ts even spent all that time justifying how Pacquiao "could be" using steroids..

as stated a millions times, there is no proof. so drop the ped ****.

talks like this is detrimental to the sport, not only one fighter. guys who aren't even fans of pacquiao should be outraged with this whole steroids issue.

it is one thing to not give credit to a fighter you never liked, it is another to accuse him of cheating.

a lot who are supporting this issue based their claims on the fact that pacquiao was able to rise through the weights. some refuted this by showing pacquiao's fighting weights.... then the idiots came out with claims that some PED's don't let you gain weight... these *******s present a point that completely contradicts their original claims

bottom line. this **** needs to die.

Your not following my posts.

Actually, I've liked Pac for quite some time. My issues have been with Freddie Roach on some issues (who I like with some things and not so much other things)...and some crazy Pac fans with over-blowing things.

The question is being brought up because of how things are in this era or don't you pay attention?
It's the Great Oz effect of sometimes things aren't what they seem. So it is OK to question.

Questioning is good.

Now go back over what I put in bold at the start in the article...but first, look up on this page to read my reply post.



For PEDS comment: This is true. Some are used for increase of weight while getting stronger while others can help take off weight. Some just to tone your body up...to just gain a few pounds...all while making your muscles stronger than they were.

[rawr]

interesting article:

In an overseas telephone conversation with Boxingscene.com, Insidesports.ph, Standard Today and Viva Sports, Manny Pacquiao’s media advisor Mike Koncz said training was progressing remarkably well despite persistent reports of in-camp fighting.

“Everything is going exactly to plan” Koncz declared, suggesting that rumors to the contrary were a “ruse perpetrated by the betting industry”.

Conditioning coach Alex Ariza has allowed a rare glimpse into Pacquiao’s eating regime. “Manny loves bananas” he said, pointing out that he had eaten one for breakfast that very morning.

Another source told us that Manny’s fondness for bananas was beginning to frustrate trainer Freddie Roach. It was rumored that Manny frequently had to rush to the bathroom mid sparring on more than one occasion. “They just go straight through him” Roach was heard to mutter.

Pacquiao’s chief sparring partner Jose Luis Castillo was reluctant to comment although he did hint that bananas were Manny’s “secret weapon” when trying to make weight.

It can also be revealed that Pacquiao’s camp has enlisted the help of former athletics coach Trevor Graham for “secret strength and speed coaching”.

“It’s not the first time we have used him” Ariza said, suggesting that Graham was actually the mastermind behind Manny’s freakish success over the past few years.

“He wouldn’t be here without Big Trev, that’s for sure” Roach admitted.

Manny has also been running everyday, except during periods of inclement weather.
“He doesn’t like to get his feet wet” laughed sparring partner Shawn Porter, “It’s no wonder he can’t swim”.



Trevor Graham
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Trevor Graham is a Jamaican-born former athletics coach, based in the United States. Following the balco scandal, the us olympic Committee barred him indefinitely from all its training sites as a number of the athletes he was training had tested positive for drug abuse.
Contents

Formed in 1993 by Graham and incorporated in 1997, Sprint Capitol usa was based at the Paul Derr Track on the North Carolina State University Main Campus in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Among the athletes who joined and trained with the group were:

* Shawn Crawford
* Justin Gatlin- received an 8 year suspension from usaDA in 2006
* Alvin Harrison- received a 4 year suspension from usaDA in 2004
* C.J. Hunter- tested positive for Nandrolone after withdrawing from the Olympics in 2000.
* Marion Jones- olympic medals and world records revoked after she admitted accepting performance enhancing drugs from Graham in the balco scandal
* Tim Montgomery - 100m World Record revoked after he admitted accepting steroids and other performance enhancing drugs from balco[4]
* Antonio Pettigrew- Olympic medals for entire 2000 U.S 4 x 400 metres relay team were returned following admission of use of hgh and epo under Graham
* Jerome Young- received suspension and disqualifications for using Nandrolone, since overturned
* Marcus Brunson
* Duane Ross
* Randall Evans
* Chandra Sturrup
* Me'Lisa Barber
* LaTasha Jenkins

balco scandal

Graham played a critical role in the balco (Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative) scandal of June 2003, anonymously sending a syringe containing the designer steroid Tetrahydrogestrinone (THG) to the United States Anti-Doping Agency. In July 2006, Angel Guillermo Heredia testified before a us federal Grand Jury that he had worked for Graham from 1996 to 2000, providing illegal performance enhancing drugs. While a number of athletes coached by Trevor Graham have received suspensions for drug use, he has always denied direct knowledge or involvement, and denies having ever met Heredia.[5] After Gatlin failed a test for testosterone, announced in July 2006, Graham stated in an interview that Gatlin had been set up. [6][4]

An unsent letter written by balco's Victor Conte to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency described the use of an oral testosterone by Graham that "will clear the body and be undetectable in urine in less than a week after discontinuing use." At the end of the letter, Gatlin was one of four athletes identified as using the drug.[7]

The International Association of Athletics Federations (iaaf) said on July 31, 2006 that Graham could face a two-year ban if evidence links him to any doping violations and the United States Anti-Doping Agency decides not to take action.[8]

On August 3, 2006 the United States Olympic Committee banned Trevor Graham from its training facilities[9]. This was the first time a coach has received such a ban based on the excessive number athletes in their charge who have tested positive. As a result of the above events, Nike ended its contract with Graham in August 2006.[10]

On May 29, 2008 Graham was convicted of one count of lying to federal investigators. A mistrial was declared on two other counts as jurors could not reach a unanimous agreement.[11]

The us anti-Doping Agency chief executive Travis Tygar, on July 15, 2008, confirmed a life ban on Trevor Graham for breaking anti-drugs rules: "It sends a powerful reminder that coaches are not above the rules. There's a misconception that they are because we don't drug-test them, but this shows that we'll use all of our authority. There's no opportunity to seek reinstatement. Any chance that he may have had for that has passed. He's waived that."[12] His ban included participation in any event sanctioned by the U.S. Olympic Committee, the iaaf, usa Track & Field or any other group that participates in the World Anti-Doping Agency program

whoa. that all true?

[aether]

Your not following my posts.

Actually, I've liked Pac for quite some time. My issues have been with Freddie Roach on some issues (who I like with some things and not so much other things)...and some crazy Pac fans with over-blowing things.

The question is being brought up because of how things are in this era or don't you pay attention?
It's the Great Oz effect of sometimes things aren't what they seem. So it is OK to question.

Questioning is good.

Now go back over what I put in bold at the start in the article...but first, look up on this page to read my reply post.



For PEDS comment: This is true. Some are used for increase of weight while getting stronger while others can help take off weight. Some just to tone your body up...to just gain a few pounds...all while making your muscles stronger than they were.

ill gladly have my "i love pacman" tattoo removed when you present me with something credible.

right now, atleast give the man the credit he deserves.

[HaglerSteelChin]

Pac has gotten proportionally stronger with the increase in weight, as expected, he has not gotten dramatically stronger. He did to De La Hoya and Cotto the exact same thing he did to Barrera and Morales. It's not like he suddenly developed freakish one punch knockout power (Hatton walking into a power shot being an outlier).

Second, steroids won't cover up a weak chin. Pac's taken some shots through the years and he's always had a good beard. Some posters just never noticed it. >



Steroids build up muscular power, this is why sprinters like Ben Johnson took them. I haven't heard of too many marathoners getting caught for taking steroids, nor cyclists (They prefer EPO, an altogether different PED)

As to why aging pitchers take steroids, its simple, as we age, we produce less natural testosterone, hence a decline in muscle mass, they are using steroids in an attempt to hold off the ravages of time. Your comparison just doesn't hold up at all.



Now you are just reaching.



That is a very subjective interpretation. I could take what you said and apply it to Muhammad Ali, he took some beatings from Frazier and Foreman, yet he was still a monster in the Thrilla. Are you saying he was on steroids too?



Correction, Top Rank and Manny Pacquiao haven't sued YET. If Senior keeps making his asinine insinuations, especially without even a hint of a rumor of evidence to back up his claims, you can bet that a lawsuit will be forthcoming.



And this non sequitor is proof that Manny is on steroids?

I would call this nothing more than a guilt by association smear but even that would be too classy to describe your assertion.



There are two ways of looking at this, you can think like Floyd Mayweather Sr that Manny Pacquiao is just a blown up featherweight, who must be on some PED, or you can approach this like Nazim Richardson and realize that Pacquiao is actually a natural lightweight or jr welterweight who was forced to fight many of his great fights while weight drained.


Name me other boxers who could physically dominate another fighter on his 7th Weight class. ROy Jones Jr was a great fighter and one who did get caught with PED. Did he knockout John Ruiz?Fighting Harada possibly the greatest asian fighter of all time wasen't able to have the same power at featherweight falling short twice in winning a featherweight title. He could only dominate flyweight and bantomweight. This is a guy who studied japanese martial arts and had punching power.

I never discussed his chin, i discussed his body. I know pac is a great fighter and has a chin. My point is the body blows. You need superb conditioning to handle a cotto body shot; let alone many. Pac went down 5 times early in his career and now he NEVER goes down. Sugar Ray Leonard and Roy Jones never went down EARLY in their career. But BOTH went down LATE in their career. VERY STRANGE, pac is the reverse he went down early BUT never late.

LOL, LOL. PED's also help recovery time and stamina. CLemens dosent care about muscle mass he wants more velocity and endurance. Lance Armstrong got Testicular cancer as many other atheletes which are often the outcome of abnormal levels of Testesterone.



I am reaching that people dont test Positive and are taking PED's? Shane Mosley NEVER was caught. Yet eventually he was tied to the infamous Balco scandal. Freddie Roach denied Toney took PED's, yet Roach who trained Toney had to show face when Toney was caught.


ALi is different. Ali was a boxer who didnt take many beatings for a good portion of his career. In addition, he was idle from the sport for 3 or 4 years due to the vietnam draft. It was mainly after his comeback that he started to get hit and did show wear down. His bouts that would ended alot faster in his heyday would now go the distance.


Top Rank wont sue because it would bring EVEN more attention to the issue of PED's. When they know they have alot to hide. Floyd has personally called out manny as a cheater. If Manny and Freddie are so innocent why havent they Denied the allegations in a PUBLIC way. Manny says "HE never heard of Steroids"? I guess when he takes his drug tests he thinks they are checking if he eats Adobing Antigo or Lumpiang Suriwa.


I guess you are one of those who thought the Fort Hood killer was just guilt by association. It had nothing to do with radical islam, even if the facts were conspicious. The culture of cheat is rampant there. I will apologize of my wording however. I will rephrase the desire to make millions and move up in weight class is a motive for many boxers to take PED's Manny can't make not even a fraction of the money he makes at welter than on Featherweight.


Manny was only drained making 112 when he lost to Singurat 3k battery. He never looked drained between 122-130

I personally think the whole issue of PED's in boxing can be sorted out if they would do more comprehensive testing. Instead of looking for substances they can look for abnomalities. For example, we know that most total t goes from 260 to 1200 nanogram per decileter. Yet there are athletes that are in the thousands and dont TEST POSITIVE. There is no way the body naturally produces 4,000 total T. More randoms tests and ability to curtail the use of designer drugs. Unfortunately, with the millions of dollars at stake i dont see it happening. This is why i believe other guys as Hopkins are on PED's Hopkins is in mid 40's and still one of the best fighters out there. Foreman fought old but he just had power and not even a fraction of the speed he had.