Pacquiao's success raises questions

[burlyman]

Name me other boxers who could physically dominate another fighter on his 7th Weight class. ROy Jones Jr was a great fighter and one who did get caught with PED. Did he knockout John Ruiz?Fighting Harada possibly the greatest asian fighter of all time wasen't able to have the same power at featherweight falling short twice in winning a featherweight title. He could only dominate flyweight and bantomweight. This is a guy who studied japanese martial arts and had punching power.

Comparing RJJ and Fighting Harada to Manny Pacquiao? Because it hasn't been done in the modern era, this is proof that Pac is on something? Your logic seems spurious at best.

You seem to be laboring under the impression that I have to prove Pacquiao is clean. It is YOUR assertion that Pacquiao is on PED's, so it falls on you to provide evidence of just such action. So far you've listed nothing but speculation and innuendo.

I never discussed his chin, i discussed his body. I know pac is a great fighter and has a chin. My point is the body blows. You need superb conditioning to handle a cotto body shot; let alone many. Pac went down 5 times early in his career and now he NEVER goes down. Sugar Ray Leonard and Roy Jones never went down EARLY in their career. But BOTH went down LATE in their career. VERY STRANGE, pac is the reverse he went down early BUT never late.

Most of Pacs knock downs came early in his career, when he was still a teenager, meaning he was not fully developed physically. It didn't help that he was fighting well below his natural weight back then either.

LOL, LOL. PED's also help recovery time and stamina. CLemens dosent care about muscle mass he wants more velocity and endurance. Lance Armstrong got Testicular cancer as many other atheletes which are often the outcome of abnormal levels of Testesterone.

CORRECTION, Roger Clemens wanted to maintain his velocity and endurance, rather than suffer a decline in performance that comes with aging.

So now you are an expert on Lance Armstrong as well?

I am reaching that people dont test Positive and are taking PED's? Shane Mosley NEVER was caught. Yet eventually he was tied to the infamous Balco scandal. Freddie Roach denied Toney took PED's, yet Roach who trained Toney had to show face when Toney was caught.

You are reaching by trying to link all this to Manny Pacquiao.

You have committed two logical fallacies in short order, first, creating a strawman argument, then second, and you have been using this repeatedly, guilt by association.

ALi is different. Ali was a boxer who didnt take many beatings for a good portion of his career. In addition, he was idle from the sport for 3 or 4 years due to the vietnam draft. It was mainly after his comeback that he started to get hit and did show wear down. His bouts that would ended alot faster in his heyday would now go the distance.

And Manny is different how? He really doesn't have a lot of miles on his chassis. He hasn't had to take many shots since Marquez II.

Top Rank wont sue because it would bring EVEN more attention to the issue of PED's. When they know they have alot to hide. Floyd has personally called out manny as a cheater. If Manny and Freddie are so innocent why havent they Denied the allegations in a PUBLIC way. Manny says "HE never heard of Steroids"? I guess when he takes his drug tests he thinks they are checking if he eats Adobing Antigo or Lumpiang Suriwa.

If Senior keeps insisting on these allegations, without any evidence at all, that is defamation, you can bet your bottom dollar someone will sue, maybe Top Rank, maybe Manny Pacquiao.

I guess you are one of those who thought the Fort Hood killer was just guilt by association. It had nothing to do with radical islam, even if the facts were conspicious. The culture of cheat is rampant there. I will apologize of my wording however. I will rephrase the desire to make millions and move up in weight class is a motive for many boxers to take PED's Manny can't make not even a fraction of the money he makes at welter than on Featherweight.

Another strawman argument, and contradictory to boot. In one paragraph you are saying that Nidal Hasan's actions have nothing to do with Radical Islam, which they probably don't, all the while insinuating that because Manny Pacquiao comes from the Philippines, he probably cheats. Which is it?

Manny was only drained making 112 when he lost to Singurat 3k battery. He never looked drained between 122-130

And while fighting at 130, Pacquiao went from 130 at the weigh in, to 144 come fight night, this was in 2006. He was probably 148 or 149 in the ring versus Cotto, so Pacquiao gained 5 pounds in the past three years.

I personally think the whole issue of PED's in boxing can be sorted out if they would do more comprehensive testing. Instead of looking for substances they can look for abnomalities. For example, we know that most total t goes from 260 to 1200 nanogram per decileter. Yet there are athletes that are in the thousands and dont TEST POSITIVE. There is no way the body naturally produces 4,000 total T. More randoms tests and ability to curtail the use of designer drugs. Unfortunately, with the millions of dollars at stake i dont see it happening. This is why i believe other guys as Hopkins are on PED's Hopkins is in mid 40's and still one of the best fighters out there. Foreman fought old but he just had power and not even a fraction of the speed he had.

And there is nothing wrong with more stringent testing. But what does this have to with Manny Pacquiao? You still have not answered this question. Do you have some evidence other than speculation from Mayweather Sr and Kermit Cintron?

[!! Shawn]

Pacquiao's success raises questions
November 16, 2009 By WALLACE MATTHEWS wallace.matthews@newsday.com

Quick Summary: Manny Pacquiao's success may lead to questions regarding the usage of performance enhancing drugs.

Manny Pacquiao has come a long way since his first major fight in the United States.

In 2002, as a scrawny 120-pounder, he knocked out Jorge Julio to win the junior featherweight title in Memphis while his family, unable to get seats in the arena - a megafight between Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis was the main event - was forced to watch the bout on closed-circuit television 50 miles away at a casino in Tunica, Miss.

Since then, Pacquiao has won 16 more fights, scored 12 more knockouts, claimed another half-dozen world titles in four more weight classes.

His weight has increased by nearly 25 pounds and his star has risen to the point where, after his impressive 12th-round TKO over Miguel Cotto Saturday night, Pacquiao is now boxing's one and only rock star.

Naturally, that has led some to suspect that Pac Man must be doing something unnatural.

And illegal.

"If it was me, I wouldn't fight him," said Floyd Mayweather Sr., father of the fighter expected to be Pacquaio's next opponent in what could be the richest fight in history. "Whether I could whip him or not, I wouldn't fight him, because things ain't right. I'm pretty sure that's what it is."

"It," of course, is the S-word, as in steroids. And the G-word, as in human growth hormone.

Coming from Mayweather, it is easy to dismiss such talk as a negotiating tactic, or setting up a reason to duck the fight, or to excuse a loss.

Coming from anyone else, it is a fair and legitimate question that needs to be examined, especially in an era in which so many athletes, from ballplayers to bike racers, have proven to be dirty.

As Pacquiao gets bigger, stronger and better at a stage in his life when most fighters just get older, is it that crazy to ask how a singles hitter against bantamweights became a slugger against welterweights?

As my colleague Bobby Cassidy pointed out in his excellent boxing blog, Pacquiao's career arc isn't all that different from that of Barry Bonds, who suddenly became a monster at 37. Pacquiao is a month shy of 31.

Pacquiao, along with every fighter on Saturday's card, was tested for a lengthy list of banned substances, including the hundreds of PEDs prohibited by WADA. The results of those tests will not be known for another week to 10 days.

But we do know Pacquiao tested clean after his previous 10 fights in Las Vegas, including the two most impressive: the night he made Oscar de la Hoya quit on his stool last December, and his destruction of Ricky Hatton in May.

Rarely in boxing history has a fighter carried his punch up the ladder the way Pacquiao has. Not even Roberto Duran, who ruled weight classes from 135 to 168 over 20 years, was knocking out bigger men the way Pacquiao is, and he was known as "Hands of Stone".

Clearly, what Pacquiao has been able to do is remarkable, maybe even unprecedented.

But his spotless track record affords him the benefit of the doubt, and it is possible the explanation is as simple as a good punch in the mouth.

It could just be that for the first time in his career, Pacquiao - who grew up dirt-poor in Quezon City, Philippines, and is said for a time to have lived on the streets - is fighting in the correct weight class.

"All these years, the guy was killing himself to make weight," Pacquiao's trainer, Freddie Roach, told me Monday. "He couldn't eat while he was training and he was very unhappy. Now, he can eat breakfast the day of the weigh-in, and it makes a huge difference for him."

In fact, Pacquiao ate breakfast and lunch before the weigh-in for the Cotto fight, and still hit 144, a pound less than the negotiated 145-pound limit.

"It's a shame but whenever a guy's successful, people get jealous and try to come up with reasons to knock it down," Roach said. "Manny don't need no steroids. He doesn't even know what they are.''

It's been a long, tough trip from the gutter to the big time for Manny Pacquiao. Talk like this only confirms that he has finally arrived.


http://www.newsday.com/columnists/wa...ions-1.1593060

I think the ever increasing size of Mannys head speaks to his use of performance enhancing drugs more than any actual performance in the ring.

[rao007]

I think the ever increasing size of Mannys head speaks to his use of performance enhancing drugs more than any actual performance in the ring.

2005


2008

[HaglerSteelChin]

Comparing RJJ and Fighting Harada to Manny Pacquiao? Because it hasn't been done in the modern era, this is proof that Pac is on something? Your logic seems spurious at best.

You seem to be laboring under the impression that I have to prove Pacquiao is clean. It is YOUR assertion that Pacquiao is on PED's, so it falls on you to provide evidence of just such action. So far you've listed nothing but speculation and innuendo.



Most of Pacs knock downs came early in his career, when he was still a teenager, meaning he was not fully developed physically. It didn't help that he was fighting well below his natural weight back then either.



CORRECTION, Roger Clemens wanted to maintain his velocity and endurance, rather than suffer a decline in performance that comes with aging.

So now you are an expert on Lance Armstrong as well?



You are reaching by trying to link all this to Manny Pacquiao.

You have committed two logical fallacies in short order, first, creating a strawman argument, then second, and you have been using this repeatedly, guilt by association.



And Manny is different how? He really doesn't have a lot of miles on his chassis. He hasn't had to take many shots since Marquez II.



If Senior keeps insisting on these allegations, without any evidence at all, that is defamation, you can bet your bottom dollar someone will sue, maybe Top Rank, maybe Manny Pacquiao.



Another strawman argument, and contradictory to boot. In one paragraph you are saying that Nidal Hasan's actions have nothing to do with Radical Islam, which they probably don't, all the while insinuating that because Manny Pacquiao comes from the Philippines, he probably cheats. Which is it?



And while fighting at 130, Pacquiao went from 130 at the weigh in, to 144 come fight night, this was in 2006. He was probably 148 or 149 in the ring versus Cotto, so Pacquiao gained 5 pounds in the past three years.



And there is nothing wrong with more stringent testing. But what does this have to with Manny Pacquiao? You still have not answered this question. Do you have some evidence other than speculation from Mayweather Sr and Kermit Cintron?

LOL. I love it when people like burlyman who pretend to know facts give false information. THe Majority of Pacman knockdowns happed as a teenager.................WRONG. Manny was knock down only once as a teenager and that was the Torrecampo fight. His knockout against 3K battery happened when he was nearly 21. Hussein knocked him down when he was 22, THe yashmbegamatov fight was when he was 25 and the disputed flash knockdown in the first barrera fight happened when he was nearly 26. I guess under the burlyboy definition 21, 22, 25, and 26 means you are STILL a teenager LOL. In addiiton, all athletes develop different. Mike Tyson was very developed by 18 and 19- already knocking guys out.


Roger Clemens LOL, yes he was maintaning velocity, RIGHT ON. Roger was almost a has been when he left the Red Sox. Even the GM said he was on the twilight of his career. But when he goes to the Blue Jays all of a sudden.....his numbers dont maintain and they go through the roof. He starts to win CY Young awards for the first time in years........just a coincidence. He wasent maintaining he was IMPROVING perfomance.

You talk about fighter harada, talk about recent fighters who have won flyweight and also a Lightweight title- Let alone a welterweight title.


THis comment that burlyman and another poster makes me laugh about fighting weight and walk in weight. Clottey walks in at 170 BIG DEAL, does that mean he can fight natural Middleweights, supermiddleweights-let alone natural 170 Light Heavyweights? The idea that pac walked in at 140 before dosent mean it is fighting weight it si walk in weight. There are many fighters who come in 15 pound heavier YET they cant make a fight at the balloon weight.

If i am a fighter and i am clean I WONT allow people question my integrity. Than when asked say "I dont know what steroids are?" So when they do checks on pac you think he believes he is being checked for flinstones vitamins or protein shakes? Which one is it LOL?

As far as evidence? There is plenty of circumstanial evidence, you cant say 100% he is clean and I cant say 100% that he is cheating. This is why i said he is likely taking PED's. Jose Canseco had to write a book and name-names before the SH&T hit the fan. I am sure other guys as Hopkins will eventually be exposed. When there is an investigation. But in a sport with millions of dollars at stake you think promoters,fighters, and boxing media will come forward? Is it in their interest to clean the sport or their interest to have mega fights like Pac vs Floyd?

[burlyman]

LOL. I love it when people like burlyman who pretend to know facts give false information. THe Majority of Pacman knockdowns happed as a teenager.................WRONG. Manny was knock down only once as a teenager and that was the Torrecampo fight. His knockout against 3K battery happened when he was nearly 21. Hussein knocked him down when he was 22, THe yashmbegamatov fight was when he was 25 and the disputed flash knockdown in the first barrera fight happened when he was nearly 26. I guess under the burlyboy definition 21, 22, 25, and 26 means you are STILL a teenager LOL. In addiiton, all athletes develop different. Mike Tyson was very developed by 18 and 19- already knocking guys out.

At what age do males reach physical maturity? I'll give you a hint HaglerBallsonChin, it isn't 19. An athlete hits his peak around the mid 20's to early 30's. So, you just admitted a very young (and weight drained) Pacquiao was knocked down a few times during his early 20's and the only knock down he experienced after 25 came at the hands of a HOFer in Barrera.

Roger Clemens LOL, yes he was maintaning velocity, RIGHT ON. Roger was almost a has been when he left the Red Sox. Even the GM said he was on the twilight of his career. But when he goes to the Blue Jays all of a sudden.....his numbers dont maintain and they go through the roof. He starts to win CY Young awards for the first time in years........just a coincidence. He wasent maintaining he was IMPROVING perfomance.

I'd accept your premise if Clemens had not won a Cy Young while pitching for the Red Sox. Did Clemens win a Cy Young from 1984 to 1996?

In fact he won three of them. So did Roger Clemens IMPROVE on his physical attributes, or did he seek to recapture them by taking PED's? Has Manny Pacquiao sought to recapture some faded perfromance from his youth perhaps?

You're not very good at this.

THis comment that burlyman and another poster makes me laugh about fighting weight and walk in weight. Clottey walks in at 170 BIG DEAL, does that mean he can fight natural Middleweights, supermiddleweights-let alone natural 170 Light Heavyweights? The idea that pac walked in at 140 before dosent mean it is fighting weight it si walk in weight. There are many fighters who come in 15 pound heavier YET they cant make a fight at the balloon weight.

And the point has gone clean over your head.

If Pac fought at 144 in 2006, and he fought at 149 in 2009, does that seem like Steroid Abuse to you? 5 pounds in 3 years? I find your comments lolable!

If i am a fighter and i am clean I WONT allow people question my integrity. Than when asked say "I dont know what steroids are?" So when they do checks on pac you think he believes he is being checked for flinstones vitamins or protein shakes? Which one is it LOL?

And yet you just said this:

Top Rank wont sue because it would bring EVEN more attention to the issue of PED's. When they know they have alot to hide. Floyd has personally called out manny as a cheater. If Manny and Freddie are so innocent why havent they Denied the allegations in a PUBLIC way. Manny says "HE never heard of Steroids"? I guess when he takes his drug tests he thinks they are checking if he eats Adobing Antigo or Lumpiang Suriwa.

So, would you sue to clear your name, or would you keep quiet to let the issue fade away? It seems you've already made your mind up that Top Rank, and by extension, Pacquiao are already guilty without presenting even a hint of credible evidence.

As far as evidence? There is plenty of circumstanial evidence, you cant say 100% he is clean and I cant say 100% that he is cheating. This is why i said he is likely taking PED's. Jose Canseco had to write a book and name-names before the SH&T hit the fan. I am sure other guys as Hopkins will eventually be exposed. When there is an investigation. But in a sport with millions of dollars at stake you think promoters,fighters, and boxing media will come forward? Is it in their interest to clean the sport or their interest to have mega fights like Pac vs Floyd?

Speaking of circumstantial evidence, I believe Floyd Mayweather Jr may be on PEDs. What's your take on the matter?

Floyd, while being bigger than Manny has a smaller frame. Manny's wrists and fists are bigger than Floyd's. He has a robust frame while Floyd has a gracile frame. Now, there are studies out there that attempt to study a persons bodymass index on the basis of skeletal frame, based on Floyd's frame, he shouldn't be anywhere near his present size. Not only does he have the heart of a lightweight, he has the frame of a lightweight!

Floyd has fragile hands, a cause of such fragility could be that his muscles are generating more force than his frame, and associated tendons and ligaments, can contain (Steroids may increase muscular strength, but they do not increase tendon or ligament strength accordingly).

From the New York Times in 2005:

Mayweather, the flashy former lightweight champion, had complained to his trainers about brittle hands since his days as an amateur. In search of a solution, Mayweather sought the help of boxing's premier hand-wrapping sage, Rafael Garcia, 75, who learned his craft in the gyms of Mexico City.

Known for his work in the corner with Roberto Duran - the Panamanian champion known by the name manos de piedras, or hands of stone - Garcia said that when he joined Mayweather's camp about four years, ago Mayweather suffered from weak tendons.

What say you on that piece of circumstantial evidence? Will you call out Mayweather with the same zeal?

[HaglerSteelChin]

At what age do males reach physical maturity? I'll give you a hint HaglerBallsonChin, it isn't 19. An athlete hits his peak around the mid 20's to early 30's. So, you just admitted a very young (and weight drained) Pacquiao was knocked down a few times during his early 20's and the only knock down he experienced after 25 came at the hands of a HOFer in Barrera.



I'd accept your premise if Clemens had not won a Cy Young while pitching for the Red Sox. Did Clemens win a Cy Young from 1984 to 1996?

In fact he won three of them. So did Roger Clemens IMPROVE on his physical attributes, or did he seek to recapture them by taking PED's? Has Manny Pacquiao sought to recapture some faded perfromance from his youth perhaps?

You're not very good at this.



And the point has gone clean over your head.

If Pac fought at 144 in 2006, and he fought at 149 in 2009, does that seem like Steroid Abuse to you? 5 pounds in 3 years? I find your comments lolable!



And yet you just said this:



So, would you sue to clear your name, or would you keep quiet to let the issue fade away? It seems you've already made your mind up that Top Rank, and by extension, Pacquiao are already guilty without presenting even a hint of credible evidence.



Speaking of circumstantial evidence, I believe Floyd Mayweather Jr may be on PEDs. What's your take on the matter?

Floyd, while being bigger than Manny has a smaller frame. Manny's wrists and fists are bigger than Floyd's. He has a robust frame while Floyd has a gracile frame. Now, there are studies out there that attempt to study a persons bodymass index on the basis of skeletal frame, based on Floyd's frame, he shouldn't be anywhere near his present size. Not only does he have the heart of a lightweight, he has the frame of a lightweight!

Floyd has fragile hands, a cause of such fragility could be that his muscles are generating more force than his frame, and associated tendons and ligaments, can contain (Steroids may increase muscular strength, but they do not increase tendon or ligament strength accordingly).

From the New York Times in 2005:



What say you on that piece of circumstantial evidence? Will you call out Mayweather with the same zeal?

I guess you afforded the liberty to change things. YOU SAID manny was mostly knocked down as a teenager and proven to be WRONG, and are not man enough to admit it . Now you say athletes keep developing until their mid 20's to cover your mistake LOL. WRONG. Each individual is different. Manny started to fight at a young age and he was not a teenager in 4 of his 5 knockdowns. Also your pathethic in making generalizations, Wilfred Benitez was a champ at age 17 and by the time he fought Moore and Hilton in his mid 20's HE WAS PAST his prime. Lennox Lewis after the Tyson fight explained "some fighters are like mike they are great in their young ages and people like me are like fine wine they get better age" You keep changing the barometer, first he was a teenager, than you find out you are wrong, OKAY I am wrong but fighters keep developing until their 30. LOL.

ROger Clemens last cy young was in 1991 before the roids. Okay so he WENT 6 YEARS between CY youngs. You said he wanted to maintain peformance. Look at what the Steroids did in 1995 and 1996 his numbers were 10-5 with a 4.18 Era and 10-13 with a 3.63 Era. Than in 1997 he goes 21-7 with a 2.05 ERA and 1998 he goes 20-6 with a 2.65 ERA. That is not maintaning that is SUBSTANTIAL IMPROVEMENT. In addition, he didnt win CY young awards back to back since 1986-1987 that is like 10 years.

You keep mentioning that pac is weight drained what nonsense is that. He wasen't weight drained since the 112 pound fight with 3k battery. So he GAINED 10 pounds and was more comfortable at 122 and STILL would get knockdown by Hussein, a fight that he was saved in ROund 4. As he was really knocked out and the pinoy ref Padila gave him long count. In addition, he was holding on for dear life and the ref didn't even seperate them, so hussein had to push him away and the ref than penalize him. He was knockdown twice at 126. PLEASE, if he is weight gain than he should have moved to light weight. He NEVER was drained since the 1999 fight. I wont repeat myself, Fighting weight and walk weight are different. Ricky hatton is sometimes called Ricky FATTON because he can balloon over 170 and even Cotto can reach 170. I guess by your definition they are drained and should fight at super middleweight and light heavyweight.

BTW, don't call me haglerbaldson, i am not even black, did i call you BurlyGirl? name calling is so childish.

As far as Floyd and PED's? I never would rule it out. I have stated that there are many other fighters likely taking PED's. I called out BHOP and Pac is the most LIKELY. Roy Jones after the balco scandal started to get KOD. It is likely ROy had PED when he fought Ruiz. But Floyd started out at 130 and fought at highest 154. He didnt physically dominate opponets at 147 and his only 154 fight. Pac the former flyweight champ PHYSICALLY dominates welters. A guy who went down 5 times and now can resist the kitchen sink.

We can go back and forth to the cows come home. You cant say 100% he is innocent and i cant say 100% he is guilty. This is just a forum i am sure the truth will eventually come out.

[Maidana vs Rios]

On a scale of 1 to 10, how mad will the haters get over Pac's victory?

[freedom213]

This has to be one of the most fascinating threads on boxing scene in a while. Bottom line is Benny simply made a lot of valid points not necessarily regarding Pac only but many of the other fighters tha appear to have secret weapons when it comes to fitness. What is sad is that boxing will steer clear of this subject because they know that there is likely a percentage of fighters doing this and busting them means that reputations will be tarnished, that means a loss of revenues and we can't have that. You have to be more than a little interested when boxers like Malignaggi makes statements like he did about Manny and then you hear nothing coming from Manny's camp.

[PirateGorilla]

This has to be one of the most fascinating threads on boxing scene in a while. Bottom line is Benny simply made a lot of valid points not necessarily regarding Pac only but many of the other fighters tha appear to have secret weapons when it comes to fitness. What is sad is that boxing will steer clear of this subject because they know that there is likely a percentage of fighters doing this and busting them means that reputations will be tarnished, that means a loss of revenues and we can't have that. You have to be more than a little interested when boxers like Malignaggi makes statements like he did about Manny and then you hear nothing coming from Manny's camp.

What the hell do you want them to say? He takes a piss/blood test passes it people will question it anyway. He can't sue his ass, so what's the point. He just needs to keep doing what his doing, and forget about the haters.

[PurdySexyFloyd]

admit it *******s pacquiao is on steriods