toney doing what roy jones did

[Neuraxis]

I don't see why this is even debatable. Before Roy was shot, he only lost once to Griffin. Toney lost to Griffin twice, Jones once, and Thazdi once and he had a draw with Sanderline Williams who was 2-7 in his previous 9 fights before getting the draw with Toney.

[Super_Lightweight]

hmm

Yet Calzaghe has dominated a division since 1997' and is 38-0 (33KO's) but still not considered top 20 P4P???

Get real, dude. Calzaghe is about to face a guy that he already TKO'd in a round. Hopkins has faced better comp than Calzaghe, and he TOTALLY DOMINATED Tito, which no one thought would happen. You can't blame Hops for wanting to make money now and then, but don't act like he doesn't fight the respected guys in his weight. He did fight Eastman who is a top 5 middleweight. He totally outsmarted him and still you attack him for not facing legit middleweights.

He thrashed Echols about and Echols is bigger than Hops. Tito is a legit middleweight and cannot make 154 anymore. Also beat legit top 10 Allen. Of course, no one wanted them to fight 3 times but the sanctioning bodies demanded it. I don't defend Hops' style either because I don't neccessarily like it.

However, Hopkins has and is proving that he wants to go out big. That's why he's facing Taylor (who I think can beat Bernard). You still have not answered my question about what European fighter around Bernard's weight right now has a better resume than Hopkins. Calzaghe pulls out of fights 1 week before they are supposed to happen, and after several instances of this there are few excuses the fans want to hear. If he is such a badass, he needs to prove it by getting in the ring. I think he is a good fighter but when is he going to fight a good fighter? If Hops' resume is average or so bad to you then what does that make Joe's resume?

By the way, you were just flat out wrong in your statement about the middleweight tournament. Hopkins won the tournament by beating Tito. The tournament was set up by Don King.

He only got big when he beat Tito, and then kept saying, "Why do all those guy's eat like models??? Floyd, Tszyu, Mosley, De La Hoya, etc - Because they're afraid to step up and fight a middleweight?"... That to me sounds like a guy calling out the little guy's!

Wow...talk about an overstatement. You need to stop with that revisionist history. Hopkins NEVER called out Zoo or Floyd...LOL. I'm not even sure he called out Mosley but if he did, prove it.

If Toney beats Ruiz he becomes a top 10 P4P???...(Ruiz is FAR.... From being the bst heavyweight out there!!!)

Are you serious? Love him or hate him Ruiz has proved he is a top 5 heavyweight. He gets the "w" whether you like the way he gets it or not. If Toney beats Ruiz, Toney gets big credit because Toney is not even a real heavyweight. Is this so hard for you to understand? If Calzaghe did the same thing, he would ALSO be ranked very highly.

For the record, lately Joe C. is averaging 1 fight every 8 months, has never brought his game to the U.S. to show the world what he has, has fought guys ranked #29 and #56 in his division (which isn't even that good) in his last 2 fights, and was knocked down by Kabary Salem is his last fight.

[masterdirector]

Two big factors also, if not already mentioned, are that Jones himself already beat Ruiz. Therefore, Toney, a naturally bigger guy who knocked out Holyfield, a real heavyweight, in 9, should beat Ruiz.

Jones vs. Ruiz was the first time in years that it would be a natural light heavyweight/super middleweight fighting a natural heavyweight. Jones was definitely a bigger name at the time. Hell he still is. Go ask people on the street who Roy Jones is, then ask who Toney is. Half won't even know Jones, but more will know Jones than Toney.

And there were LOTS of people, myself included, not so positive Jones would win. I know I was nervous as hell about it. I picked Ruiz to win cause I was like "Damn, as soon as Ruiz hits Jones, it'll be a whole world of difference. 12 rounds is a damn long time to not get hit." Once Jones easily beat Ruiz, he really was thought to be invincible at any class under heavyweight. Had he retired then, he would've been thought of as possibly the best pound for pound fighter ever by many.

But no, Jones let his ego get the best of him and let Tarver get under his skin. Really nobody would've thought that badly of Jones had he not fought Tarver. Cause nobody believed for a second that Jones would have any struggle whatsoever with Tarver. I mean damn, Tarver had already lost, was Jones' age, and Jones had just easily beat a heavyweight. Really Jones had nothing to gain by beating Tarver, except pride. And Tarver had nothing to lose. Everyone expected him to lose royally.

Toney vs. Ruiz, Toney seems like the favorite. More because everyone just hates Ruiz so much I think, especially Ruiz's umm...style.

[Martin (Top Knowledge)]

Joe Calzaghe's 16 title fights as Super-middleweight Champ.

Kabary Salem
Mger Mkrtchian
Byron Mitchell
Tocker Pudwill
Miguel Angel Jimenez
Charles Brewer
Will McIntyre
Mario Veit
Richie Woodhall
Omar Sheika
David Starie
Rick Thornberry
Robin Reid
Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra
Branko Sobot
Chris Eubank

Bernard Hopkins 20 title defences as middleweight champ

Howard Eastman
Oscar De La Hoya
Robert Allen
William Joppy
Morrade Hakkar
Carl Daniels
Felix Trinidad
Keith Holmes
Antwun Echols
Syd Vanderpool
Antwun Echols
Robert Allen
Robert Allen
Simon Brown
Andrew Council
Glen Johnson
John David Jackson
William James
Joe Lipsey
Steve Frank

To be honest with you, I see little difference between the 2 men's records. There are quite a few "smaller guy's/welterweights" on Hopkins record... + he does have the tendancy to defend his belt against the same guy's over and over again. Mind you there are a few "pretty ****ty names" on Calzaghe, but just as many ****ty names on Hopkins!

Calzaghe should get massive respect for beating guys like Mitchell recently... Mitchell who defended his WBA S/middleweight belt 7 times before getting it stolen from him by corrupt judges in Germany/Ottke... And then in his next fight he faces Calzaghe. He's never been on the deck in his professional career and get's steam roled through in 2 rounds!

Or the well respected Charles Brewer long reigning IBF S/middleweight Champ, Calzaghe does face the guy's in his own division. If you take away the two (welterweights) names Trinidad and De La Hoya, there are not many recognizable names on Hopkins career.

All I'm saying is that there are very few differences between the two men's records, yet Hopkins get's so much more credit even though he's only beating guy's in several weight divisions below him.

[Super_Lightweight]

lol

If you take away the two (welterweights) names Trinidad and De La Hoya, there are not many recognizable names on Hopkins career.

Trinidad is no welterweight. Hopkins wasn't even his first fight at middleweight. Trinidad was KO'ing good guys at middleweight before he even fought Hopkins.

Mitchell is/was a good fighter, but he might have won the fight if it had not been prematurely stopped...we will never know. If you see little difference in level of opponents then wow...there is no help for you.

Mario Veit has done nothing but beat an ancient Charles Brewer. Salem, Mger, Podwill, Jiminez, McIntyre, Woodhall, Thorberry, Ferreyra, Sobot all were not very good and have no or maybe one notable career accomplishments. Some of these guys aren't even ranked. Podwill lost to an OLD Vinny Paz.


Starie lost to a nobody named Andrew Thysse who's been KO'd by fighters who are not even top 15, and lost to an old Sven Ottke, and has no significant win in his career.

Reid beat an old Sven Ottke, lost to Thulane Malinga, and Joe was only able to bea him by SD.

Eubank was definitively past his prime when Joe fought him, and would lose two fights to nobody Carl Thompson after fighting Joe.

Brewer was past his prime when Joe was willing to fight him. He had lost a war with Echols (a guy Joe never fought but should have) and had a lot of fights at that point in his career.

Sheika was a face first brawler, a solid guy, but nothing special and Joe stopped him on cuts and couldn't even KO him. Old Thomas Tate was able to stop Sheika on cuts, too.

Mitchell is the only really good win Joe has and that one was controversial. Joe is in a weak division to be honest and didn't seem to avoid competition until lately, fighting guys that are ranked 29 and 56 in the world.

Hopkins' Comp:

The not-so-good guys or ones who were past their prime: Hakkar, Frank, Lipsey, James, Council, Jackson, Brown, and Daniels.

More than half of Joe's comp fit in this category. Less than half of Bernard's fit in this category.

Decent to good guys Hopkins beat: Tito (awesome power fighter who everyone thought would KO Hopkins), Allen, a decent fighter, not great but he was ranked in the top 10 and in fact still is...Holmes was decent, legit top 10 guy.

Joppy was a respected fighter who beat Eastman in a good, close fight but was totally dominated and thrashed by Hopkins. However, Joppy was past his prime when they fought, but they WAY Hopkins won is telling.

Echols was a very good and feared fighter wen Hopkins fought him.

Hopkins is the only person to ever stop Glen Johnson, and now Glen is the light heavyweight champion of the world.

Eastman was picked by many to beat Hopkins (including me) and Hopkins owned him, although the 1st half of the fight was too cautious for my taste...Eastman did next to NOTHING.

Syd Vanderpool is a good, legit top 10 supermiddleweight now and his only loss in the last 11 years is vs Jeff Lacy, and Vanderpool was very in the fight until Lacy stopped him.

Hopkns has the better comp, brother. It's simple to see.

[Run]

Joppy was a respected fighter who beat Eastman in a good, close fight but was totally dominated and thrashed by Hopkins. However, Joppy was past his prime when they fought, but they WAY Hopkins won is telling.

Did you really think the fight was THAT one sided? Because I had Joppy winning several rounds. Prime William would have given him:

Eastman was picked by many to beat Hopkins (including me)
.

"Bit more than he could chew". Like he did Howie over here. Lets also not forget Joppy had 2 warrants out for his arrest at the time of the fight. He was nervous.



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[Martin (Top Knowledge)]

Mario Veit has done nothing but beat an ancient Charles Brewer. Salem, Mger, Podwill, Jiminez, McIntyre, Woodhall, Thorberry, Ferreyra, Sobot all were not very good and have no or maybe one notable career accomplishments. Some of these guys aren't even ranked. Podwill lost to an OLD Vinny Paz.

Richie Woodhall had won and defended the WBC Super-middleweight title 4 times before losing it a year before facing Calzaghe.

Reid beat an old Sven Ottke, lost to Thulane Malinga, and Joe was only able to bea him by SD.

Calzaghe was ONLY able to get a split decsion?... Robin Reid is a QUALITY fighter, a very avoided fighter that should be the WBC/IBF champion now if it wasn't for German corruption. Robin Reid rated something like 3rd in the division now?

Joppy was a respected fighter who beat Eastman in a good, close fight but was totally dominated and thrashed by Hopkins. However, Joppy was past his prime when they fought, but they WAY Hopkins won is telling.

The only reason Joppy won that fight against Eastman was because of a "home town" decsion. And Eastman fought Joppy about 3 or 4yrs before Hopkins fought him? Joppy was well shot by the time Hopkins stepped up, and he'd only fought once since again since that Eastman beating.

I admit that Hopkin's career is slightly better than Calzaghe's... But there isn't much in it!

Anyway, We can pick holes in their careers or we can predict what would happen if they ever did fight each other?... (Incedentally Calzaghe has been calling out Hopkins for years!)

It's all academic because Hopkins won't fight people in higher weight catagories... He said that he's interested in fighting Glen Johnson at light-heavyweight, but I'd bet my right testicle that fight will never happen! (He'll blame it on money).

Hopkins next defense will be against the winner of Wright vs Tito... And "AGAIN" Hopkins fights guy's coming up in weight... Uuurrrrggghhh!!!! - It's so predictable.

SO THEN THE PREDICTION!!!.... Calzaghe would steam role through Hopkins in the 1st half of the fight.

::::::: CALZAGHE BY KO BEFORE THE 6TH :::::::

[Neuraxis]

Calzaghe was ONLY able to get a split decsion?... Robin Reid is a QUALITY fighter, a very avoided fighter that should be the WBC/IBF champion now if it wasn't for German corruption. Robin Reid rated something like 3rd in the division now?

Yeah and Fernando Vargas is 2nd. Stay away from Boxrec's rankings regarding the top 10. Here's *********'s top 16, Reid is 10th.

1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Marcus Beyer
3. Mikkel Kessler
4. Jeff Lacy
5. Danny Green
6. Anthony Mundine
7. Mads Larsen
8. Mario Veit
9. Scott Pemberton
10. Robin Reid
11. Syd Vanderpool
12. Eric Lucas
13. Librado Andrade
14. Manny Siaca
15. Rudy Markussen
16. Byron Mitchell

[Run]

Yeah and Fernando Vargas is 2nd. Stay away from Boxrec's rankings regarding the top 10. Here's *********'s top 16, Reid is 10th.

1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Marcus Beyer
3. Mikkel Kessler
4. Jeff Lacy
5. Danny Green
6. Anthony Mundine
7. Mads Larsen
8. Mario Veit
9. Scott Pemberton
10. Robin Reid
11. Syd Vanderpool
12. Eric Lucas
13. Librado Andrade
14. Manny Siaca
15. Rudy Markussen
16. Byron Mitchell

That list is so laughable, I find it hard to not "burst out laughing" at it. Vanderpool's ranking is so far off, and they are leaving out key fighters in the divison. Ring Magazine's list would be better than that.

Why Omar Sheika is not there, is far beyond me as well. Julio Cesar Green? where is he?



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[Neuraxis]

That list is so laughable, I find it hard to not "burst out laughing" at it. Vanderpool's ranking is so far off, and they are leaving out key fighters in the divison.

I count one who they left off for whatever reason, Magee? Who else are you talking about. Vanderpool lost his last fight. Usually that's what happens when you lose. I think you would dislike the Ring rankings even more, as I remember them having Lacy 7th. Sheika's not there because he's lost 5 of his last 8. Losing by KO 1 to Kessler really hurt Green and he's only won 2 of his last 6.