Carl Froch, Joe Calzaghe War of Words Starts Again

[S A M U R A I]

Hi again Samurai.



I'm a bit puzzled by that comment. I thought all of the Ingle fighters concentrated on being elusive, which Froch is anything but.

And Herol Graham gave a prime Mike McCallum (who most now regard as an ATG) arguably his toughest fight, which he only lost as a result of points deducted for low blows, so he must have been doing something right.

I'm talking about the hands-down thing which Froch employs, not necessarily elusiveness. I think Froch tries to be elusive like that but lacks the reflexes to pull it off.

True, Graham gave McCallum a tough fight. Split decision to Mike, wasn't it? The Bomber got bombed when he met Jackson though. He went out like a light!



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[Dynamite Kid]

Barrera dissected Hamed's style, its more a case of what Barrera did do than what Hamed did not do.

Barrera knew Hamed was essentially a counter puncher and that a lot of his opponents that bull rushed him got knocked out, he also knew that Hamed left himself open when he got aggressive, so he made Hamed take the lead in the fight and he kept circling to his left to avoid Hamed's left hand, but one of the other most important parts of his strategy was that when he let his hands go he went to the body first, then! brought his punches upstairs which enabled to find Hamed's head everytime, Hamed always had pretty good upperbody movement so Barrera made sure he hit the body to stand him straight up for the head shots and it worked perfectly, matter of fact it was a perfect game plan.


I dont think it had much to do with Hamed's training dropping off either, he just moved up in class and started getting hammered because of his technical deficiencies, his defence/balance got exposed and he was being tattooed by better technically sound fighters like Kelly, Johnson, and he was getting raked with punches against Medina, ****** about by Ingle & Sanchez, he looked terrible against McCullough & Soto, he was even being decked in his second defence against Alicea. Hamed's defence looked superb when he was fighting domestic fighters but when he stepped up his technical flaws cost him.

The proof is in the pudding, when Hamed was at domestic level he looked tremendous and no one could seem to nail him, when he won the title he was being nailed on a regular basis.

[Dave Rado]

That's the first time I've seen you make a spelling mistake, Dave. 'Focused' has only one S.

Actually it can be spelt either way - see here for instance.

You have a point, but there's a difference here. Jones, for example, was athletic enough and had a fast enough reaction time to get away with being unorthodox. I don't think Froch has anywhere near the same reflexes that he can rely on to sneak, slip and slide out of the way of punches.

My point was simply that the theory that a good orthodox fighter always beats a good unorthodox one was much too simplistic. And I'm not convinced that in Froch's case, if he started to box in a more orthodox manner, that would necessarily help him. IMO it's his lack of talent that is the problem, not the fact that he's unorthodox.

Joe wasn't that unorthodox. He is quite traditional, actually, and certainly nowhere bear being an Ingle-style fighter.

As I said in a separate post, I'm puzzled that you consider Froch to be Ingle-style.

You say he was lacking motivation, and that's why he put in a lackluster performance?

The fact is that he did seriously under-train, and barely did any sparring at all for the fight. Whether that affected the outcome is a matter of opinion, but you can't deny the fact. See here for instance.

And many people - including Ingle - had been saying that he was declining as a fighter long before the Barrera fight, and even before he fought Kelly, due to his falling in love with his power and neglecting his skills in training.

His real prime was around the time of the Robinson fight. I don't buy that the fighter that beat Robinson would have been decked by Kelly. IMHO you're being influenced by the fact that you disliked his style and his personality.

[S A M U R A I]

Barrera dissected Hamed's style, its more a case of what Barrera did do than what Hamed did not do.

Barrera knew Hamed was essentially a counter puncher and that a lot of his opponents that bull rushed him got knocked out, he also knew that Hamed left himself open when he got aggressive, so he made Hamed take the lead in the fight and he kept circling to his left to avoid Hamed's left hand, but one of the other most important parts of his strategy was that when he let his hands go he went to the body first, then! brought his punches upstairs which enabled to find Hamed's head everytime, Hamed always had pretty good upperbody movement so Barrera made sure he hit the body to stand him straight up for the head shots and it worked perfectly, matter of fact it was a perfect game plan.


I dont think it had much to do with Hamed's training dropping off either, he just moved up in class and started getting hammered because of his technical deficiencies, his defence/balance got exposed and he was being tattooed by better technically sound fighters like Kelly, Johnson, and he was getting raked with punches against Medina, ****** about by Ingle & Sanchez, he looked terrible against McCullough & Soto, he was even being decked in his second defence against Alicea. Hamed's defence looked superb when he was fighting domestic fighters but when he stepped up his technical flaws cost him.

The proof is in the pudding, when Hamed was at domestic level he looked tremendous and no one could seem to nail him, when he won the title he was being nailed on a regular basis.

You said it better than I could. Props. I agree with the entire post.



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[Dave Rado]

I'm talking about the hands-down thing which Froch employs, not necessarily elusiveness. I think Froch tries to be elusive like that but lacks the reflexes to pull it off.

I'm not convinced that he's trying to be elusive in that way. He has almost no head or upper body movement. I think he just believes that keeping his hands low allows him to counter from angles that his opponents won't see coming. He knows that he needs to keep them up when he's just thrown a combination and is moving back out of range, and that his failure to do that against Taylor and Pascal cost him. He's said that is something he's working on in training, and to be fair, he rarely made that mistake against Dirrell - his hands were up just after throwing a lot more in that fight.

But the rest of the time, I don't think keeping his hands low is a major problem for him. His main problem against Dirrell was that he simply doesn't know how to cut off the ring against a very fast fighter.

True, Graham gave McCallum a tough fight. Split decision to Mike, wasn't it? The Bomber got bombed when he met Jackson though. He went out like a light!

Yeah, he got careless - he was way up on the cards at the time, though. One of the most shocking knock-outs I've ever seen, especially as it was so completely out of the blue.

[Dave Rado]

Barrera dissected Hamed's style, its more a case of what Barrera did do than what Hamed did not do.

Barrera knew Hamed was essentially a counter puncher and that a lot of his opponents that bull rushed him got knocked out, he also knew that Hamed left himself open when he got aggressive, so he made Hamed take the lead in the fight and he kept circling to his left to avoid Hamed's left hand, but one of the other most important parts of his strategy was that when he let his hands go he went to the body first, then! brought his punches upstairs which enabled to find Hamed's head everytime, Hamed always had pretty good upperbody movement so Barrera made sure he hit the body to stand him straight up for the head shots and it worked perfectly, matter of fact it was a perfect game plan.


I dont think it had much to do with Hamed's training dropping off either, he just moved up in class and started getting hammered because of his technical deficiencies, his defence/balance got exposed and he was being tattooed by better technically sound fighters like Kelly, Johnson, and he was getting raked with punches against Medina, ****** about by Ingle & Sanchez, he looked terrible against McCullough & Soto, he was even being decked in his second defence against Alicea. Hamed's defence looked superb when he was fighting domestic fighters but when he stepped up his technical flaws cost him.

The proof is in the pudding, when Hamed was at domestic level he looked tremendous and no one could seem to nail him, when he won the title he was being nailed on a regular basis.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but nevertheless, the fact is that he didn't train properly for either the Barrera fight or for several fights before that, and he did fall in love with his power, to the detriment of his focus on his skills. I'm not saying the result would necessarily have been any different if he'd been fully focussed and in peak condition against Barrera, but I don't see how anyone can be sure, because the fact is, he wasn't fully focussed, or in peak condition.

[George W Bush]

Froch is ****ing annoying but Cags is a ****ing joke.

[Dynamite Kid]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but nevertheless, the fact is that he didn't train properly for either the Barrera fight or for several fights before that, and he did fall in love with his power, to the detriment of his focus on his skills. I'm not saying the result would necessarily have been any different if he'd been fully focussed and in peak condition against Barrera, but I don't see how anyone can be sure, because the fact is, he wasn't fully focussed, or in peak condition.

Hamed got exposed as he moved up nothing more.

[S A M U R A I]

Actually it can be spelt either way - see here for instance.

Bastard. OK, just take the compliment -- you don't make too many mistakes.

My point was simply that the theory that a good orthodox fighter always beats a good unorthodox one was much too simplistic. And I'm not convinced that in Froch's case, if he started to box in a more orthodox manner, that would necessarily help him. IMO it's his lack of talent that is the problem, not the fact that he's unorthodox.

Right. I get what you're saying, but it wasn't "always beats", only "usually beats an orthodox fighter". I wouldn't generalize and say every good orthodox fighter beats an unorthodox one.

As I said in a separate post, I'm puzzled that you consider Froch to be Ingle-style.

He almost does resemble that style at times.

The fact is that he did seriously under-train, and barely did any sparring at all for the fight. Whether that affected the outcome is a matter of opinion, but you can't deny the fact. See here for instance.

And many people - including Ingle - had been saying that he was declining as a fighter long before the Barrera fight, and even before he fought Kelly, due to his falling in love with his power and neglecting his skills in training.

I wasn't dis*****g the fact that he neglected his training, Dave, although from how I put it you can be forgiven for thinking that. Contrary, I have read a few articles and seen Manny Steward talking about that. I just don't believe it was the reason he lost. I stand behind my previous comment and echo Dynamite's, too -- his style was always gonna lose to fighters at the top level. It wouldn't matter when Hamed and Barrera fought -- prime or not, motivated or not -- Barrera has the ring smarts and technical skills to beat him comfortably.

His real prime was around the time of the Robinson fight. I don't buy that the fighter that beat Robinson would have been decked by Kelly. IMHO you're being influenced by the fact that you disliked his style and his personality.

It's possible, I won't doubt that. Let's be honest -- if you simply dislike a fighter's style (and persona, in my case), it's sometimes hard to give them any credit at all. The Calzaghe haters ought to admit to this. I will certainly admit to being biased against Hamed, partly due to personal reasons (which I won't go into here), and partly just because style-wise, and ego-wise, I find him incredibly irritating. If I watched his fights, I'd want to beat the **** out of him even before he stepped in the ring. The ring walk was enough to rile me. Strange reaction? Probably. I just always thought he was rubbish and had no right to act like he was anything special.



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[S A M U R A I]

I'm not convinced that he's trying to be elusive in that way.

Maybe not so much these days, yeah. In his earlier fights he looked to be a bit more slippery and elusive, but that's against less-than-stellar competition. As he's moved up the ranks he's had to be a bit more sensible.

He has almost no head or upper body movement. I think he just believes that keeping his hands low allows him to counter from angles that his opponents won't see coming.He knows that he needs to keep them up when he's just thrown a combination and is moving back out of range, and that his failure to do that against Taylor and Pascal cost him. He's said that is something he's working on in training, and to be fair, he rarely made that mistake against Dirrell - his hands were up just after throwing a lot more in that fight.

But the rest of the time, I don't think keeping his hands low is a major problem for him. His main problem against Dirrell was that he simply doesn't know how to cut off the ring against a very fast fighter.

Even if he did cut off the ring he still wouldn't have landed anything. His problem, like you said, is probably a lack of talent. When he did manage to cut the ring off and trap Dirrell, he was tagged with some beautiful counters. If I was Froch I would have been embarrassed.

Yeah, he got careless - he was way up on the cards at the time, though. One of the most shocking knock-outs I've ever seen, especially as it was so completely out of the blue.

Yeah I remember, it looked like Graham was gonna whip him up until he got sparked didn't it? I need to see that fight again, it's been a while. That was indeed a brutal KO.



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