Comments Thread For: Derrick James: It Will Be Hard for Devin Haney to Recover From a Beating Like That

[billeau2]

Give me a break...Teach him how to throw a Jab.He is useless.teach him.you were telling him use the jab,,,and he didn't even acknowledge you.He does not respect you.he is boxing worst than ever.he was not landing and not following up when Haney was hurt.something is way way off. training is useless with Garcia, or he has learning issues or you are not hard enough.

That's very simplistic understanding. Certainly Ryan is not very coachable and that's a problem. It's definitely an advantage when a fighter, I'm thinking holyfield for example, can be told if you want to beat Rid**** Bo you better be boxing, instead of slugging, and then can follow through with it, That's a mark of skill.

But Ryan has incredible talent that also guides him. This is not to be taken lightly. That talent is a real yardstick and guiding post and he showed that.

Skillful means tells us that sometimes slight alterations are in order instead of major demands. Ryan's team got him to go in there and confidently go to work. They may have done this without doing much of anything except slightly steering Ryan on a course where you didn't go off the reservation. The skill to do that sometimes is even greater than trying to totally redesign a fighter.

There's no doubt that the opposite is also true. Would Goldman did with Marciano for example, taking a guy with two left feet, no reach, and turning him into a great champion took quite a bit more than a little steering lol so I see your point.

[rickJen]

He can still come back and stay longer as long as he can avoid getting hit.

[megas30]

That's what a puncher does. Garcia moves well when he isn't screwing his body up trying to make some crazy weight. Punchers often fight in spurts so they have power when they attack. It's logical. Wilder does the same thing.

Now the thing was Garcia is, either he is a genius, or crazy as a fox maybe a bit of both? How deliberate was he about the weight? It would truly be a genius move if he planned this.

I don't think there's anything unethical about what he did considering Haney does the same thing with rehydration. It looks like Bill and his son got outfoxed lol.

No. Intelligent punchers don't do that. Amateur fighters do that. Had Garcia picked his shots when he had Haney hurt he would have had the stoppage. Instead, he amateurishly smothers his punches and gives Haney room to grab and hold him.

About the weight. He said that Floyd told him to come in over 3lbs and **** Haney. His words.

[billeau2]

No. Intelligent punchers don't do that. Amateur fighters do that. Had Garcia picked his shots when he had Haney hurt he would have had the stoppage. Instead, he amateurishly smothers his punches and gives Haney room to grab and hold him.

About the weight. He said that Floyd told him to come in over 3lbs and **** Haney. His words.

We can agree to disagree.

Amatuer fighters fight at one pace because of the amount of rounds, they do not fight in spurts generally speaking, as a characteristic of the method. They would lose rounds to the opponent just on the amount of shots thrown otherwise.

Professional fighting is in many ways a numbers game. especially for a puncher: A puncher knows they get a certain amount of cracks at the apple. If it took Louis one round to find Conn, instead of 12, does it mean more than taking 12 rounds? Rhetorical question, but it gives insight into how a puncher is successful.

Spurts allow a puncher to maximize his opportunities. Not all punchers are the best finishers, but seldom does one see a great puncher who is a poor finisher. This is for the same reason.

Boxer punchers have more options. Pressure guys, different approach entirely. But a puncher, bona fide, has to be able to look at a fight, make sure they get a certain amount of opportunities, and to be able to maximize those opportunities.

[Eff Pandas]

This feels like a sneak diss at Errol.

Randomly is there a thread talking about guys who took a prolonged beating like Devin did & how well they did or didn't come back? That feels like its been talked about before?

It can't be a good thing or positive for ones career longevity, but I'm curious about specific examples.

[megas30]

We can agree to disagree.

Amatuer fighters fight at one pace because of the amount of rounds, they do not fight in spurts generally speaking, as a characteristic of the method. They would lose rounds to the opponent just on the amount of shots thrown otherwise.

Professional fighting is in many ways a numbers game. especially for a puncher: A puncher knows they get a certain amount of cracks at the apple. If it took Louis one round to find Conn, instead of 12, does it mean more than taking 12 rounds? Rhetorical question, but it gives insight into how a puncher is successful.

Spurts allow a puncher to maximize his opportunities. Not all punchers are the best finishers, but seldom does one see a great puncher who is a poor finisher. This is for the same reason.

Boxer punchers have more options. Pressure guys, different approach entirely. But a puncher, bona fide, has to be able to look at a fight, make sure they get a certain amount of opportunities, and to be able to maximize those opportunities.

You are missing the point. Garcia's lack of skill allowed Haney to go twelve. Garcia is a Mayorga-level fighter. Even his antics are Mayorga-like. If you can't hurt him, the more the fight goes on, the higher the chance you might get caught with something wild.

[hugh grant]

Nah he should be ok. Be more humble and realise your not as good as you.believed. Work harder and he will become greater

[billeau2]

You are missing the point. Garcia's lack of skill allowed Haney to go twelve. Garcia is a Mayorga-level fighter. Even his antics are Mayorga-like. If you can't hurt him, the more the fight goes on, the higher the chance you might get caught with something wild.

I don't know why you think a lack of skill was the issue. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes I missed the point because you made a statement about fighting in Spurts that I was responding to, agreed. Although I do think we disagree if you believe that fighting in spurts is a weakness under all conditions.

Mayorga was actually very good. He beat some solid fighters coming up, like six heads Lewis in addition to his victory(s) over forest.

So I think I agree with you but probably not for the point that you're trying to make lol. To be perfectly clear here I agree Ryan is a mayorga level fighter. I also tend to think that mayorga was excellent. He was explosive, he beat some very solid competition before he kind of fell off the reservation.

As a matter of fact, I'll do you one better, I think the analogy fits the psychological profile of Ryan as well.

But you seem to think this is a weakness. I don't agree with that. Ryan took Haney apart and the fight should have been stopped. It was not necessarily clinical in the way he did it, but at the end of the day apple pie is apple pie no matter how it's made.

No Ryan was more like a berserker than a surgeon that's true does that make his skill any less? I don't believe it does.

Let me ask you this. If the fight was stopped like it should have been would we even be having this conversation?

[megas30]

I don't know why you think a lack of skill was the issue. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Yes I missed the point because you made a statement about fighting in Spurts that I was responding to, agreed. Although I do think we disagree if you believe that fighting in spurts is a weakness under all conditions.

Mayorga was actually very good. He beat some solid fighters coming up, like six heads Lewis in addition to his victory(s) over forest.

So I think I agree with you but probably not for the point that you're trying to make lol. To be perfectly clear here I agree Ryan is a mayorga level fighter. I also tend to think that mayorga was excellent. He was explosive, he beat some very solid competition before he kind of fell off the reservation.

As a matter of fact, I'll do you one better, I think the analogy fits the psychological profile of Ryan as well.

But you seem to think this is a weakness. I don't agree with that. Ryan took Haney apart and the fight should have been stopped. It was not necessarily clinical in the way he did it, but at the end of the day apple pie is apple pie no matter how it's made.

No Ryan was more like a berserker than a surgeon that's true does that make his skill any less? I don't believe it does.

Let me ask you this. If the fight was stopped like it should have been would we even be having this conversation?

I said lack of skill, yes, because Garcia is bigger than Haney, so for him to fall in and smother his punches other than using his range, makes no sense. Also, he doesn't show variety. He just swings in a brawl like fashion. He doesn't jab. He barely uses his right hand unless he brawls. His defence is horrible, worse use of Philly shell I have seen.

Mayorga was not good. A tough son of B, but not good in a technical sense. Haney is just not that good either. Just that the fighters he beat are overrated. Yes, I will say it, Lomachenko is one of the most overrated fighters of our generation. Fighters I can say are technical sound. Usyk, Bivol, Tank Davis, Crawford, Ennis, Canelo, Inuoe, etc. I used to watch Vergil Ortiz, but I am on the fence, because I suspect he's been promoted carefully.

Shakur is a very skill fighter, but his lack of pop , even a stinger in his punches, could get him in trouble. Garcia is just not that good, and when faced with technical fighters who has some sort of pop to keep him honest he will look ******. Notice anytime Haney got clipped was because Haney fought against his own strength. He gets caught in slugfest with Garcia. As Big George used to say it is foolish to slug with a slugger. You never see Mayweather does that sort of thing. Garcia tried that ****** shjt with Tank and paid dearly. We will see who Garcia fight next.

[billeau2]

I said lack of skill, yes, because Garcia is bigger than Haney, so for him to fall in and smother his punches other than using his range, makes no sense. Also, he doesn't show variety. He just swings in a brawl like fashion. He doesn't jab. He barely uses his right hand unless he brawls. His defence is horrible, worse use of Philly shell I have seen.

Mayorga was not good. A tough son of B, but not good in a technical sense. Haney is just not that good either. Just that the fighters he beat are overrated. Yes, I will say it, Lomachenko is one of the most overrated fighters of our generation. Fighters I can say are technical sound. Usyk, Bivol, Tank Davis, Crawford, Ennis, Canelo, Inuoe, etc. I used to watch Vergil Ortiz, but I am on the fence, because I suspect he's been promoted carefully.

Shakur is a very skill fighter, but his lack of pop , even a stinger in his punches, could get him in trouble. Garcia is just not that good, and when faced with technical fighters who has some sort of pop to keep him honest he will look ******. Notice anytime Haney got clipped was because Haney fought against his own strength. He gets caught in slugfest with Garcia. As Big George used to say it is foolish to slug with a slugger. You never see Mayweather does that sort of thing. Garcia tried that ****** shjt with Tank and paid dearly. We will see who Garcia fight next.

Let's go paragraph by paragraph. You know the old expression if it ain't broke don't fix it? As much as I admire tape and skill. There's no question that when you watch a great fighter you can see things that are phenomenal. But the idea is to win the fight. And one of the oldest strategies is to make somebody counter something. When they counter it you do something else in some fashion. Garcia never had a reason not to hit Haney the way he did come on you got to see this megas!

If we're fighting and you keep punching me in the face, the last thing you're going to do is say maybe I should use a more sophisticated approach lol. Garcia used his speed because it worked. You want to know why that was a little bit more technically sound than you may imagine?

Watch when Andre Ward fought Dawson. Watch how he set his hook up for the knockout. He kept throwing the punch on Dawson's guard, knowing Dawson was carrying his guard low. So Dawson now says to himself I've got wards hook covered right? Once this was established ward just through the hook another few inches up and knocked Dawson out.

Haney was not guarding against the hook. He made a mistake that is common in that he was relying upon his reactions and where he thought his guard was. Veteran fighters always try to anticipate and position and do not rely on reacting. You're not giving Garcia enough credit that he read this. In my opinion anyway.

Again agreed to disagree. Mayorga was a very explosive puncher. He had a phenomenal punch and he knew how to use it effectively. He wasn't ATG, but he was excellent. Look at who he beat.

Mayorga's problem was that he really couldn't maintain and ultimately he fought some guys who were great fighters who got a read on how he was effective. Majorca was also a bully. And bullies just have a weakness. You're not going to intimidate fighters like de La Hoya. Or even Vargas.

So you think Forest was overrated? Come on man...

I can entertain an argument that Loma is overrated. I don't buy it myself but if you really watch Loma, he has tendencies that seem to be part of the Ukrainian system. You see the same thing with Usyk. They have a good technical foundation that is in some ways even unique, but they love to get physical and overpower their opponent the first chance they get.

No matter what Floyd did, he never really was out of character from the standpoint of being technically great and using that to win. If you watch Loma against the great Cuban fighter. If you watch usyk against Mike hunter, or Bellew, for example, you will see how quickly both Ukrainian fighters become bullies and use little technical chops. That just tells me that when push comes to shove that's what will happen in the ring.

No man no way. Tank is very talented but he is a protected fighter and the Garcia that he fought was seriously lacking physically. Again totally disagree with that. You can say Garcia is lacking but you cannot say that the man that fought tank that night lost because of how good tank is. Garcia's lucky to be alive frankly. Taking a liver shot with virtually no protection in your body is very bad among other things.

Hanny is a young fighter and in those divisions you cannot make mistakes. But some of that is his training. I'm not even saying bills a bad trainer but telling somebody to duck under a hook throwing with the speed that Garcia throws, it is ridiculous. To beat circular attacks you have to check your line and you have to check your angle it's not an up and down movement proposition.

So will Haney get better? I think when he sits on his punches he has pop. He also has resistance his chin is not so bad that he gets koed. Though technically he lost this fight by a k0 a few times over imo. Time will tell. I'm not sold that he's damaged goods as you are, but I don't know either way at this point.