Spence and James

[edpboxing]

Sounds like the split is over money

[crimsonfalcon07]

Your definitely right about it being hard to change style during fight
But the fact that Spence was getting tagged badly by the right and the fact that he couldn’t counter or time his opponent says much about his preparation and that’s on his trainer
To my recollection , they thought that Spence would be the bigger fighter in all senses possible
Instead it was Bud who was hitting harder and bullying Errol from the get go
Spence also didn’t have a clue how to hold or smother Bud’s work , just stood there and took the bulk of it

Rewatch the fight. People are saying he needs to work on taking his head offline. He DID take his head offline. First knockdown, he threw a body jab and took his head left, then ate a counter right and a stiff jab that dropped him while he was offline. The primary issue was that he was getting countered badly, and that's a lot because Bud was punching with him, and getting there first because he was faster. There were several times you can see him get tagged with a two piece in the time it took him to throw one punch. And Bud was doing that frequently from the very first punch Spence threw. Look at the Rd 7 knockdown. Spence threw the overhand left (which landed) but Bud still hit him first and flattened him.

So tell me, what adjustments do you make when you can't punch the other guy because he hits you first, usually right after your setup punch? There were a few times that Spence tried to feint and got hit anyways, or tried to counter the counter but got hit anyways. I'm curious what adjustments you think he can make when there's that big of a difference in speed, power, and skill?

[MulaKO]

are you telling me that a trainer like james doesnt teach this type of stuff? or is the fighter just not listening or cant execute the game plan?

it's a lot easier to sit here and be like "spence should have done this"... HE COULDNT!!!! if it's that easy then every fighter out there would be winning all their fights by having a "plan b"... sometimes, a plan z cant save you.

Are you gonna tell me a trainer like Freddy Roach teaches defence ?
I don’t doubt that the better all around fighter was Bud , that is not my argument
And maybe no matter what he changed during the course of the fight would of made no difference , can’t debate that
But the fact that nothing was even attempted to change the course of the fight should be seen as a problem
James and Spence went into this fight thinking they were bigger and stronger which wasn’t the case

[MulaKO]

Rewatch the fight. People are saying he needs to work on taking his head offline. He DID take his head offline. First knockdown, he threw a body jab and took his head left, then ate a counter right and a stiff jab that dropped him while he was offline. The primary issue was that he was getting countered badly, and that's a lot because Bud was punching with him, and getting there first because he was faster. There were several times you can see him get tagged with a two piece in the time it took him to throw one punch. And Bud was doing that frequently from the very first punch Spence threw. Look at the Rd 7 knockdown. Spence threw the overhand left (which landed) but Bud still hit him first and flattened him.

So tell me, what adjustments do you make when you can't punch the other guy because he hits you first, usually right after your setup punch? There were a few times that Spence tried to feint and got hit anyways, or tried to counter the counter but got hit anyways. I'm curious what adjustments you think he can make when there's that big of a difference in speed, power, and skill?

I agree that Bud was faster to land and his power was very noticeable from the get go
The skill was the determining factor
So in your opinion if there was a rematch what should Errol work on , has to be something he can do for a better showing than what was displayed
Remember that Spence was supposed to be the bigger and stronger fighter
Imo , Spence doesn’t move his head enough
He’s a statuary figure which doesn’t help when a fighter is teeing off on him

[MulaKO]

Sounds like the split is over money

Yes I’ve also read that there is a lawsuit pending
Apparently James is owed money

[paulf]

James is about to be the new Virgil Hunter (unemployed)

[IceTrayDaGang]

Are you gonna tell me a trainer like Freddy Roach teaches defence ?
I don’t doubt that the better all around fighter was Bud , that is not my argument
And maybe no matter what he changed during the course of the fight would of made no difference , can’t debate that
But the fact that nothing was even attempted to change the course of the fight should be seen as a problem
James and Spence went into this fight thinking they were bigger and stronger which wasn’t the case

YES!!! but that's not what roach will concentrate solely on.. just like defensive style trainers, are you telling me their not teaching their fighters any offense at all???? of course they do! but they will work more on the defensive side since that's their bread and butter just like a trainer like roach who will work more on the offensive side adding in combos, etc... but here and there, he will throw in some defense training. for someone to say "this trainer doesnt teach defense" is just comedy to me.

[MulaKO]

YES!!! but that's not what roach will concentrate solely on.. just like defensive style trainers, are you telling me their not teaching their fighters any offense at all???? of course they do! but they will work more on the defensive side since that's their bread and butter just like a trainer like roach who will work more on the offensive side adding in combos, etc... but here and there, he will throw in some defense training. for someone to say "this trainer doesnt teach defense" is just comedy to me.

I think you know what I meant
Obviously the focus is on offence
I would suggest Santos , I think he can bring something more out of Spence

[crimsonfalcon07]

I agree that Bud was faster to land and his power was very noticeable from the get go
The skill was the determining factor
So in your opinion if there was a rematch what should Errol work on , has to be something he can do for a better showing than what was displayed
Remember that Spence was supposed to be the bigger and stronger fighter
Imo , Spence doesn’t move his head enough
He’s a statuary figure which doesn’t help when a fighter is teeing off on him

To be blunt though, I really doubt there's anything he can do. When someone is both faster than you AND has the kind of power that Bud does, AND has more skill, it's a steep mountain to climb.

If I had to come up with something for him to change for the rematch though, it would be spending tons of time on footwork, feinting, modifying how he does his guard, and endurance. You're right that he needs to have his head somewhere else fast.

Part of the issue was that he was getting countered just on the setup. He couldn't string together more than 1-2 punches, which were getting blocked, without getting cracked hard, and that wasn't always because he was being defensively irresponsible, because typically your head has to remain balanced for your shot to retain power, and then you move it on the retraction of the punch. But he was getting hit on the way there, and he was getting hit even when he was slipping with the punch.

My first thought is that he needs to do a lot more feinting to try to draw out the counter. A lot of that should be foot feints so he isn't opening up his guard. That's not really been Spence's forte. I'm on record before the fight wondering why people thought someone as limited as him was considered P4P at all, and with his accomplishments being restricted to just the one division. Then when he does open up, no more than 1-2 shots before he takes the angle by shifting or pivoting. Those are tools he basically doesn't have in his arsenal. I think shifts in tight would be the best fit for his style, because he's primarily into applying pressure. So a tight shift from the cross could close off some of the counter shots, and those that remain can be defended more easily as you come in. Shift and shuffle from the jab puts him in the outside angle if Bud remains in orthodox. Of course Bud can just switch stance, but you work with what you've got in front of you. If he can get the angle, he gets a shot that isn't as likely to be countered, and he can work from the clinch. Positional defense and offense is very uncommon these days, but it would help overcome the deficits he's facing.

I think he maybe needs to work a more active high guard too, and probably use a wedge instead of a standard. His default hand position seems to be pretty low, and pressure fighters often do better coming in behind an active high guard, where you can use the entry steps to deflect some of the power of the shots. Wedge provides better head protection, although it would open him up to body shots. But knowing that's the primary opening also gives you an opportunity when they go for the body shot, and if you have the conditioning to absorb them, it could create better opportunities.

Thing is, he's got to be a much more technically skilled fighter than he currently is, and he's got a lot of habits that aren't going to go away. He got so badly outclassed it makes it look really difficult to see a different outcome. Old dog, new tricks and all that. Kinda like trying to teach Joe Joyce to have head movement and fast feet, or Zhang to fight on the bounce, or Wilder to have more of a game than just a right hand. Tall order.

[Gary Coleman]

are you telling me that a trainer like james doesnt teach this type of stuff? or is the fighter just not listening or cant execute the game plan?

it's a lot easier to sit here and be like "spence should have done this"... HE COULDNT!!!! if it's that easy then every fighter out there would be winning all their fights by having a "plan b"... sometimes, a plan z cant save you.

When have you ever seen it from Errol? The proof is in the pudding, as they say.