Wlad/Chagaev in jeopardy! Chagaev tests positive for Hepatitis B.

[joe strong]

I recently heard Germany has some of the lowest standards in the world for this issue.I don't know how accurate what I heard was but as I said before he wouldn't be allowed to fight in Canada or the us.

[knn]

Your sig is not factual; Firstly "A proberbly drugged Foreman" from what source has this come from?

1) From Ali's own trainer (co-trainer Drew Brown) who was bragging about bribing someone to poison Foreman.

2) Moreover I believe Foreman, since Foreman is no bullcrapper:

• "I almost spit it out ... [I told my trainer] 'Man, I know this water has medicine in it'"
• I climbed into the ring with that medicinal taste still lingering in my mouth."
• "After the third round, I was as tired as if I had fought 15 rounds. What's going on here? Did someone slip a drug in my water?"
• "I know there was medicine in that water. I'll never forget that."
• "It was years before I got my health back together after that fight"
• "It wasn't doctors who put something in my water. They didn't have PhDs. I'm lucky I'm still alive."

Frazier was not "half blind" in the 2nd fight and it's only by Fraziers own word and his trainer that he was half blind in the 3rd fight.

From
http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Frazier_Joe.html
"Frazier won gold at the '64 Olympics... Later in the year, Frazier learned he had cataracts in his left eye."
In other words: Frazier had a cataract in his eye from the beginning of his pro boxing career.

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrilla_in_Manila
"was later revealed that Frazier actually had a cataract in his left eye and so, with the punishment from Ali closing his right eye, Frazier was effectively fighting blind in the last rounds of the fight."

I cannot even imagine what Klitschko-haters would post when something like that was revealed regarding, letsay, Chris Byrd.

Liston was a good HW with a great jab, Ali was the heavy underdog and he weighed little over 200lbs himself at the time in the 2nd fight weighing in at 206 at a 10lb weight disadvantage.

Of the 54 fights Liston had ALL OF THEM were

1. losses (4x)
2. against bums (+38x)
3. sub-200 opponents or 6'0'' and smaller (+8x)

The remaining were wins against Cleveland Williams (his best wins), Mike DeJohn and Gerhard Zech. That's Sonny Liston's career.

However: Cleveland Williams himself is already overrated. He had merely 12 fights against non-bummy 200+ opponents, of which he won only 3 (THREE).

But it is in no means the awful resume you make it out to be. Who did he not face at the time? It's ONE of the greatest resumes of all time.

This is not Ali's complete resumee. I had only 500 characters for my sig, thus my sig misses some other important FACTS.

Let me also add that ESPECIALLY REGARDING ALI there is some circular logic involved which goes as follows:

• "Damn, Ali is good!"
• "Why?"
• "Well, did you see how he beat Joe Frazier? What a war!"
• "And why does it mean something to beat Joe Frazier?"
• "Because Joe Frazier is so good, he even beat Ali"

This is by the way THE EXACT SAME LOGIC that makes nowadays fans COMPLAIN about Klitschko:

• "Man, Klitschko is bad"
• "Why?"
• "Because he beats only easy opponents" (= they didn't come to win = current heavies suck)
• "Huh? Why so?"
• "Didn't you see, how easily they got knocked out? They couldn't stand on their feet for 15 rounds like in Ali's times"

In other words: The inability of Ali to keep his opponents at bay and to KO them is a proof of the STRENGTH of Ali's opponents while Klitschko's dominance is a proof of the weakness of Klitschko's opponents. Completely crazy. And what's worse: You cannot even argue against it: If Klitschko wins then he won against a bum. If Klitschko loses then Klitschko is the bum.

[hotshoes]

oh crap i sense another cancellation

[StarshipTrooper]

1) From Ali's own trainer (co-trainer Drew Brown) who was bragging about bribing someone to poison Foreman.

2) Moreover I believe Foreman, since Foreman is no bullcrapper:

• "I almost spit it out ... [I told my trainer] 'Man, I know this water has medicine in it'"
• I climbed into the ring with that medicinal taste still lingering in my mouth."
• "After the third round, I was as tired as if I had fought 15 rounds. What's going on here? Did someone slip a drug in my water?"
• "I know there was medicine in that water. I'll never forget that."
• "It was years before I got my health back together after that fight"
• "It wasn't doctors who put something in my water. They didn't have PhDs. I'm lucky I'm still alive."

From
http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Frazier_Joe.html
"Frazier won gold at the '64 Olympics... Later in the year, Frazier learned he had cataracts in his left eye."
In other words: Frazier had a cataract in his eye from the beginning of his pro boxing career.

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrilla_in_Manila
"was later revealed that Frazier actually had a cataract in his left eye and so, with the punishment from Ali closing his right eye, Frazier was effectively fighting blind in the last rounds of the fight."

I cannot even imagine what Klitschko-haters would post when something like that was revealed regarding, letsay, Chris Byrd.


Of the 54 fights Liston had ALL OF THEM were

1. losses (4x)
2. against bums (+38x)
3. sub-200 opponents or 6'0'' and smaller (+8x)

The remaining were wins against Cleveland Williams (his best wins), Mike DeJohn and Gerhard Zech. That's Sonny Liston's career.

However: Cleveland Williams himself is already overrated. He had merely 12 fights against non-bummy 200+ opponents, of which he won only 3 (THREE).


This is not Ali's complete resumee. I had only 500 characters for my sig, thus my sig misses some other important FACTS.

Let me also add that ESPECIALLY REGARDING ALI there is some circular logic involved which goes as follows:

• "Damn, Ali is good!"
• "Why?"
• "Well, did you see how he beat Joe Frazier? What a war!"
• "And why does it mean something to beat Joe Frazier?"
• "Because Joe Frazier is so good, he even beat Ali"

This is by the way THE EXACT SAME LOGIC that makes nowadays fans COMPLAIN about Klitschko:

• "Man, Klitschko is bad"
• "Why?"
• "Because he beats only easy opponents" (= they didn't come to win = current heavies suck)
• "Huh? Why so?"
• "Didn't you see, how easily they got knocked out? They couldn't stand on their feet for 15 rounds like in Ali's times"

In other words: The inability of Ali to keep his opponents at bay and to KO them is a proof of the STRENGTH of Ali's opponents while Klitschko's dominance is a proof of the weakness of Klitschko's opponents. Completely crazy. And what's worse: You cannot even argue against it: If Klitschko wins then he won against a bum. If Klitschko loses then Klitschko is the bum.

You know, posters like you are the biggest argument I can think of for requiring an IQ test before being granted a Boxing Scene account.

Poet

[GJC]

You fail to mention that Archie Moore fought at around 145-150 lbs in his first two professional bouts. In total he had 220 fights and most of them at 175 lbs and above. It's as if you don't know a thing about Archie Moore and have just checked his record at boxrec.com.

The man was an ATG light heavyweight and had a very good record at HW as well, beating several top ranked 200+ lbs men decisively.

Alabama Kid fought at 112 lbs when he was 15 years of age. He spent most of his career as a middleweight.

Willie Pastrano boxed at 127 lbs when he was 16. He was the light heavyweight champion of the world.

Wladimir Klitschko does have a win over a man who weighed 140 lbs when he was 20 years of age and it's his career best win over Chris Byrd.




Lewis had not gone through the wars that Holyfield had. Most people though he should have retired after losing to Rid**** Bowe years previously.

Ali too was older than the opponents he fought in the 70's yet you criticize those wins in every possible way.



You have got to be kidding me. Danny Williams and Kevin McBride weigh that much because they are grossly overweight. McBride in his prime weighed 220 lbs, Williams weighed 228 lbs years after beating Mike Tyson.



About as legit an argument as calling George Foreman drugged against Ali.



Calling light heavyweights welterweights, all-time greats half-blinds, drugged and bumbeaters is not down-grading opponents? Are you kidding me?



Most of his opponents were cruiserweights, thus they are meaningless as heavyweight title defenses, according to YOUR logic.




Clinching is dirty? Wladimir Klitschko clinched nearly 100 times against Sam Peter, Lennox Lewis was a notorious clincher, Hopkins uses clinching excessively... Ali was not the only one who did this.

Having no manners doesn't mean you're a great heavyweight. Most people who met Ali, thought he was well-mannered.



Ali did not run against Terrell, he beat Terrell up. You should watch more Terrell if you think he was terrible, he was actually a well-schooled fighter who could give anyone trouble with his awkward style. Certainly better than Ruiz.




These statistics have nothing to do with anything. Fact is that the heavyweight division back then included men who were under 200 lbs and the fights went 15 rounds. The cruiserweight limit wasn't even more than 190 lbs until just a couple of years ago.

Eliminating KO's over men who were under 200 lbs and KO's that were scored in rounds 13-15 will of course make anyone's KO statistics worse.

A much more suitable way to decide who was the better puncher of the two is to take a look at the amount of KO's scored over ranked opposition.

Chris Byrd only scored a single stoppage win over a ranked opponent throughout his whole career,an injury-related corner retirement against Vitali, while Ali had several, over all-time great heavyweights as well.

Offer proof that Foreman was drugged.




Again Byrd did not score any legit KO wins over any ranked opponents, only tomato cans and the punching bags.



So I'm supposed to believe that Chris Byrd was a better heavyweight than Joe Frazier? You are alone on that I'm afraid.




You give examples of 15-16 year old teenagers weighing very little so me doing the same for a much older fighter is fair even though he was an amateur.



Agreed. 90% of Byrd's KO wins over unranked opponents do not mean anything either.

This proves how clueless people are with their statistics without actually going back and watching these boxers with their own eyes.

Feather-fisted Joe Frazier:

Give up son he abuses the privilege of being an idiot.

[TheGreatA]

1) From Ali's own trainer (co-trainer Drew Brown) who was bragging about bribing someone to poison Foreman.

2) Moreover I believe Foreman, since Foreman is no bullcrapper:

• "I almost spit it out ... [I told my trainer] 'Man, I know this water has medicine in it'"
• I climbed into the ring with that medicinal taste still lingering in my mouth."
• "After the third round, I was as tired as if I had fought 15 rounds. What's going on here? Did someone slip a drug in my water?"
• "I know there was medicine in that water. I'll never forget that."
• "It was years before I got my health back together after that fight"
• "It wasn't doctors who put something in my water. They didn't have PhDs. I'm lucky I'm still alive."

I like Foreman but he has come out with more bizarre statements than anyone I know.

From
http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Frazier_Joe.html
"Frazier won gold at the '64 Olympics... Later in the year, Frazier learned he had cataracts in his left eye."
In other words: Frazier had a cataract in his eye from the beginning of his pro boxing career.

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrilla_in_Manila
"was later revealed that Frazier actually had a cataract in his left eye and so, with the punishment from Ali closing his right eye, Frazier was effectively fighting blind in the last rounds of the fight."

I cannot even imagine what Klitschko-haters would post when something like that was revealed regarding, letsay, Chris Byrd.

In case you didn't know, Chagaev suffered a detached retina early in his career and has bad eyesight in the left eye.


Of the 54 fights Liston had ALL OF THEM were

1. losses (4x)
2. against bums (+38x)
3. sub-200 opponents or 6'0'' and smaller (+8x)

The remaining were wins against Cleveland Williams (his best wins), Mike DeJohn and Gerhard Zech. That's Sonny Liston's career.

However: Cleveland Williams himself is already overrated. He had merely 12 fights against non-bummy 200+ opponents, of which he won only 3 (THREE).

How smart of you to discredit Liston's wins over top 10 ranked Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Nino Valdes, Henry Clark, Roy Harris, Wayne Bethea, Johnny Summerlin, Chuck Wepner as sub-200 lbers, despite some of them weighing well above 200 pounds.

This is not Ali's complete resumee. I had only 500 characters for my sig, thus my sig misses some other important FACTS.

Let me also add that ESPECIALLY REGARDING ALI there is some circular logic involved which goes as follows:

• "Damn, Ali is good!"
• "Why?"
• "Well, did you see how he beat Joe Frazier? What a war!"
• "And why does it mean something to beat Joe Frazier?"
• "Because Joe Frazier is so good, he even beat Ali"

This is by the way THE EXACT SAME LOGIC that makes nowadays fans COMPLAIN about Klitschko:

• "Man, Klitschko is bad"
• "Why?"
• "Because he beats only easy opponents" (= they didn't come to win = current heavies suck)
• "Huh? Why so?"
• "Didn't you see, how easily they got knocked out? They couldn't stand on their feet for 15 rounds like in Ali's times"

In other words: The inability of Ali to keep his opponents at bay and to KO them is a proof of the STRENGTH of Ali's opponents while Klitschko's dominance is a proof of the weakness of Klitschko's opponents. Completely crazy. And what's worse: You cannot even argue against it: If Klitschko wins then he won against a bum. If Klitschko loses then Klitschko is the bum.

As expected, nothing but sour g****s from a Klitschko fan.

An objective fan can tell that men like Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Sonny Liston, Ken Norton had more ability than the likes of Calvin Brock, Tony Thompson, Hasim Rahman.

They also beat more top ranked opposition during their era which is what matters.

[Dan...]

Is knn a Tunney alt?

I mean seriously, is it even possible for there to be TWO people on this planet that ******ed?

[GJC]

Awesome post, knn!

TheGreatA doesn't like Europeans fighters, especially the Klitschko brothers. He's too mature to bash them directly by calling them "Euro-bums", so he does it in more subtle ways.

For example, TheGreatA has posted a video about a hundred times of Vitali vs. his worst opponent ever, Mike Acklie, a short-notice replacement for Vitali's 4th professional fight. He kept posting the video with a comment like "Vitali fought poor opposition", to try to deceive people into believing that Vitali fought only bums like Acklie.

So how does this work, you have one id to call ali a coward another as a woman to say how good looking the klit brothers and yourself are? Then just alternate between them backing each other up?
I am European, don't particularily have anything for or against the klit brothers. I find their style a little boring for my taste but they carry themselves with dignity. They are the best in a weak era, Vitali had a chance at a notable opponent (Lewis) and lost.
Whatever legacy they carve out for themselves is not enhanced by their fans rewritting history and denigrating other fighters.

[Dan...]

So how does this work, you have one id to call ali a coward another as a woman to say how good looking the klit brothers and yourself are? Then just alternate between them backing each other up?
I am European, don't particularily have anything for or against the klit brothers. I find their style a little boring for my taste but they carry themselves with dignity. They are the best in a weak era, Vitali had a chance at a notable opponent (Lewis) and lost.
Whatever legacy they carve out for themselves is not enhanced by their fans rewritting history and denigrating other fighters.

ROFL, get ready for the "racist self-hater" barrage.

[StarshipTrooper]

Is knn a Tunney alt?

I mean seriously, is it even possible for there to be TWO people on this planet that ******ed?

It's either Tunney's alt or Klitschko2009's.

Poet