Wlad/Chagaev in jeopardy! Chagaev tests positive for Hepatitis B.

[KILLA RIGHT]

I hope the haye fight is back on

[knn]

TheGreatA, first of all, thank you for staying calm.

Your signature is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous. It's FACTUAL. If you find a WRONG statement in my sig then I will correct it immediately.

I guess it goes to show that anyone's, even Ali's resume can be made out to be overrated.

No, it's not true. Lennox' record is solid. Tyson's also. Joe Louis is good, too. Roy Jones', too. Larry Holmes, too. Marciano's is far worse than Ali's.

Of course most objective boxing fans agree that his resume is among the greatest of all time.

Even the most objective fans don't do a record analysis. Instead they concentrate on some "trademark fights" or some "peak performances". Moreover, how objective can a fan be if he is constantly indoctrinated by "experts" that Ali was "The Greatest" and the current division is crap.

Instead I claim here what I have been claiming in different posts: If you want to bore yourself to death by dirtiest clinchfests, powder punches and crappy defense... then watch an Ali fight. Such a dirty clinching, powder punching and crappy defense is unheard of in the current HW division. Nobody fights so dirty, so featherfisty and so defenseless like Ali did. All you have to do is to ACTUALLY WATCH a few Ali fights (e.g. Ali vs Norton or Ali vs Frazier).

The 70ies (and partly the 80ies) were a fantasy hype machine.

I am willing to argue about Ali on FACT-based grounds. All you have to do is to find some posts of mine, where I already featured stats and comparisons.

Please also note that my previous sig was:

• Take Chris Byrd... make him smaller, shorten his arms, make him featherfisitier, make him blind on 1 eye...
• Put him together in a ring with another featherfist (30%+ KOratio against better natural heavies)...
• And what do you get? Thrilla in Manilla (Frazier vs Ali). THAT was the golden age of heavyweight!

I changed it to feature more info about Ali, instead of concentrating on merely 1 fight.

[toysale]

How many world title fights can they manage to cancel in the space of 2 months?

I probably won't watch this fight as it isn't on in UK (or is it?) but surely they won't cancel this. Interested to see who wins, and if it is cancelled, is Haye back in with a shot at the title?

[Ryn0]

TheGreatA, first of all, thank you for staying calm.


It's not ridiculous. It's FACTUAL. If you find a WRONG statement in my sig then I will correct it immediately.


No, it's not true. Lennox' record is solid. Tyson's also. Joe Louis is good, too. Roy Jones', too. Larry Holmes, too. Marciano's is far worse than Ali's.


Even the most objective fans don't do a record analysis. Instead they concentrate on some "trademark fights" or some "peak performances". Moreover, how objective can a fan be if he is constantly indoctrinated by "experts" that Ali was "The Greatest" and the current division is crap.

Instead I claim here what I have been claiming in different posts: If you want to bore yourself to death by dirtiest clinchfests, powder punches and crappy defense... then watch an Ali fight. Such a dirty clinching, powder punching and crappy defense is unheard of in the current HW division. Nobody fights so dirty, so featherfisty and so defenseless like Ali did. All you have to do is to ACTUALLY WATCH a few Ali fights (e.g. Ali vs Norton or Ali vs Frazier).

The 70ies (and partly the 80ies) were a fantasy hype machine.

I am willing to argue about Ali on FACT-based grounds. All you have to do is to find some posts of mine, where I already featured stats and comparisons.

Please also note that my previous sig was:

• Take Chris Byrd... make him smaller, shorten his arms, make him featherfisitier, make him blind on 1 eye...
• Put him together in a ring with another featherfist (30%+ KOratio against better natural heavies)...
• And what do you get? Thrilla in Manilla (Frazier vs Ali). THAT was the golden age of heavyweight!

I changed it to feature more info about Ali, instead of concentrating on merely 1 fight.

Your sig is not factual; Firstly "A proberbly drugged Foreman" from what source has this come from? Please don't tell me it's because he got tired in the late rounds or looked as the fight went on?

Archie Moores PRIME was at Light Heavy but it's true he was at a severe weight disadvantage, Frazier was not "half blind" in the 2nd fight and it's only by Fraziers own word and his trainer that he was half blind in the 3rd fight. Liston was a good HW with a great jab, Ali was the heavy underdog and he weighed little over 200lbs himself at the time in the 2nd fight weighing in at 206 at a 10lb weight disadvantage.

Patterson wasn't prime i'll give you that much and Foster was very small at HW.

But it is in no means the awful resume you make it out to be. Who did he not face at the time? It's ONE of the greatest resumes of all time.

[TheGreatA]

It's not ridiculous. It's FACTUAL. If you find a WRONG statement in my sig then I will correct it immediately.

Alright.

* Ali's biggest wins (200+ lbs opponents): a 45year-old welterweight(Archie Moore), a half-blind(Frazier), a probably drugged(Foreman), a 10-year-older bumbeater(Liston), some sub-cruisers(Patterson, Foster, Mildenberger), some 6'0'' or smaller guys(Shavers UD15, Chuvalo UD15), a gun-shot(Cleveland Williams, lost 10feet of intestines before bout)
* Median KO win:198lb. Tallest notable KO:6'3.5''(drugged Foreman)
* His last 15 wins have a median record of 36-12
* THAT was the GOLDEN age of heavyweight

Archie Moore was hardly one of Ali's biggest wins. When you ask someone to tell who Ali's biggest wins were, you probably aren't going to hear the name of Archie Moore mentioned...

Moore was not a welterweight, he fought as a middleweight early on, had his peak years as a light heavyweight and gathered up a respectable record at heavyweight as well, being ranked the number 1 contender for a number of years in the mid 1950's.

The fact is that he was past it against Ali but still good enough to have held the light heavyweight champion Willie Pastrano to a draw and to KO top 5 HW contender Alejandro Lavorante (who was 6'3, 211 lbs).

Where is the proof that Foreman was drugged?

How was Liston beating bums when he had cleaned out the whole top 10 heavyweight rankings as well as KO the previous champion Patterson twice in one round?

Chuvalo and Shavers were both 6 feet or over (weighed around 210-220), kind of like Samuel Peter and Ruslan Chagaev.

No, it's not true. Lennox' record is solid. Tyson's also. Joe Louis is good, too. Roy Jones', too. Larry Holmes, too. Marciano's is far worse than Ali's.

Lewis biggest wins came against a near 40 year old cruiserweight Evander Holyfield who had suffered from numerous injuries, struggled and was knocked down against John Ruiz in his next fight as well as a 36 year old, disinterested Mike Tyson who went on to lose to Kevin McBride and Danny Williams...

His other biggest wins were against the mental case Andrew Golota as well as a gift stoppage of Vitali who was beating him up.

Tyson's biggest wins were against a bloated, inactive light heavyweight and a 40 year old, out of shape Larry Holmes.

Joe Louis was whipped in his prime by an old Max Schmeling and had his biggest win against an even older Schmeling. 90% of his title defenses were against bums. He was knocked down by journeymen like Buddy Baer and Tony Galento.

Roy Jones beat a weight-drained, unmotivated Toney, a green Hopkins who fought with an entirely different style, a paper belt holder John Ruiz and Antonio Tarver who beat him 2 out of 3 times and was robbed the first time.

Holmes fought a hyped up, inexperienced prospect Gerry Cooney who never went onto become anything, near 40 year old Ali left-overs Norton and Shavers, green 14-0 fighters like Witherspoon and Truth Williams who were robbed against him.

You can take down anyone's record like this.

Even the most objective fans don't do a record analysis. Instead they concentrate on some "trademark fights" or some "peak performances". Moreover, how objective can a fan be if he is constantly indoctrinated by "experts" that Ali was "The Greatest" and the current division is crap.

Believe me, they do. They just don't take apart his record with negative comments about everything the fighter ever did because you can do that to any fighter and it shows bias, something an "expert" should not have.

Instead I claim here what I have been claiming in different posts: If you want to bore yourself to death by dirtiest clinchfests, powder punches and crappy defense... then watch an Ali fight. Such a dirty clinching, powder punching and crappy defense is unheard of in the current HW division. Nobody fights so dirty, so featherfisty and so defenseless like Ali did. All you have to do is to ACTUALLY WATCH a few Ali fights (e.g. Ali vs Norton or Ali vs Frazier).

To others over 30 year old Ali displays what a granite jaw and an iron will he had absorbing punishment from ATG punchers such as Foreman, Shavers and Frazier and comes up with ways to defeat them, to you he was "defenseless" and "dirty".

I'd rather watch Ali-Foreman and Ali-Frazier a hundred times than watch a single round of Klitschko-Ibragimov.

Watch Ali in the 60's and ask yourself how many times you see him initiate a clinch or get hit with a punch.

What kind of a feather-fist could have stoppage wins over Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry?

Please also note that my previous sig was:

• Take Chris Byrd... make him smaller, shorten his arms, make him featherfisitier, make him blind on 1 eye...
• Put him together in a ring with another featherfist (30%+ KOratio against better natural heavies)...
• And what do you get? Thrilla in Manilla (Frazier vs Ali). THAT was the golden age of heavyweight!

I changed it to feature more info about Ali, instead of concentrating on merely 1 fight.

Comparing Chris Byrd to Joe Frazier is an utter joke.

Did you know that Chris Byrd was fighting at 140 lbs when he was 20 years old?

Frazier was always 205-215 lbs. He knocked out over 70% of his opponents, hardly feather-fisted.

[gingeralbino]

How many world title fights can they manage to cancel in the space of 2 months?

I probably won't watch this fight as it isn't on in UK (or is it?) but surely they won't cancel this. Interested to see who wins, and if it is cancelled, is Haye back in with a shot at the title?

i think its on sky

[knn]

Archie Moore was hardly one of Ali's biggest wins.

OF COURSE it wasn't one of his biggest wins. Because Archie Moore was a 45 year old welterweight. Actually Archie Moore was older, since he probably lied about his age by making himself 2 or 3 years younger.

You are right, that the correct term shouldn't be "biggest" but something like "mentionworthy". But I have only 500 characters for the sig and I used up all of them.

When you ask someone to tell who Ali's biggest wins were, you probably aren't going to hear the name of Archie Moore mentioned...

Sorry, but "Archie Moore" _WILL_ probably be mentioned.

Moore NEVER fought at welterweight, he started as a middleweight

He boxed at 145 and 147. That's welterweight'ish enough. But not only that: Archie Moore's record consists of beating guys who boxed as low as 112lbs! (Alabama Kid). Archie Moore's median opponent was 172lbs.

Can you just IMAGINE the outcry of US fans if Wlad Klitschko would box a near 50-year-old guy who has wins over guys as low as 139lbs (Chuck Vickers), or over guys who boxed as low as 112lbs?

had his peak years as a light heavyweight and had a respectable record at heavyweight as well, being ranked the number 1 contender for a number of years in the mid 1950's.

In the 50ies Archie Moore's median fight weight was 180lbs. He would box as a sub-cruiser nowadays. Just tells you how crappy the heavyweight division was.

The fact is that he was past it against Ali but still good enough to have held the light heavyweight champion Willie Pastrano to a draw and to KO top 5 HW contender Alejandro Lavorante (who was 6'3, 215 lbs).

Willie Pastrano boxed as low as 122 lbs. I see absolutely NO RELEVANCE to anything. The win over Alejandro Lavorante (19-5) is Moore's biggest win in the 1960ies. So what?

Lewis biggest wins came against a near 40 year old Evander Holyfield

First of all, Evan Fields was 37 year old when he lost against Lennox. But more importantly: Lennox was merely 2+ years younger. You try to put an argument against Lewis where there is none.

as a 36 year old, disinterested Mike Tyson who went on to lose to Kevin McBride and Danny Williams...

Again the same story: But this time Lewis WAS EVEN OLDER than Mike Tyson. That Mike Tyson lost against Williams and McBride is based on the fact that both were Tyson's TWO HEAVIEST opponents (Williams: 265, McBride: 271). Tiny Mike couldn't compete with that. I don't buy this "Mike was shot" theory, because it's mainly used when Mike loses or when someone wants to reduce Lennox' achievements. You should rather accept the following statement: Mike is an ATG, but Lennox won because Lennox is a greater ATG.

His other biggest wins were against the mental case Andrew Golota

I don't see how the "beauty of mind" should have anything to do with a career's record. Moreover the win over Golota is not worth much indeed, not because of Golota's mind, but because Golota's level record.

as well as a gift stoppage of Vitali who was beating him up.

Unsatisfying yes, but gift? The 5 cuts on Vitali's left face were caused by Lennox' punches and because of Vitali's terribly low left hand.

Tyson's biggest wins were against a bloated, inactive light heavyweight and a 40 year old, out of shape Larry Holmes.

I won't go there, because you try now to downgrade the opponent's opponents. I didn't do that with Ali's opponents' opponents. If I would do it, then Ali would look even worse.

Joe Louis was whipped in his prime by an old Max Schmeling and had his biggest win against an even older Schmeling. 90% of his title defenses were against bums. He was knocked down by journeymen like Buddy Baer and Tony Galento.

Since when is boxing a "knockdown contest"? Joe Louis won against Baer and Galento. This "knockdown business" is as useless as the "unavenged losses business".

The "90% bums" figure is wrong. Only approx. 7 of 27 title fights were against bummy opponents. The rest were against a median opponent of 52-8 (at bout) & 69-12 (career) which is EXTREMELY good. Joe Louis is an ATG. Not a single chance against modern heavies, but nevertheless an ATG.

You can take down anyone's record like this.

So far I didn't see anything convincing. HOWEVER, let me restate, that I am very happy that you try to solve issues by fact exchanges!

To others over 30 year old Ali displays what a granite jaw he has taking punches from ATG punchers such as Foreman, Shavers and Frazier and comes up with ways to defeat them, to you he was "defenseless" and "dirty".

The clinching, head-downpushing, insulting _IS_ dirty. Ali has no manners until now. He insults interviewers and obviously finds it funny to smirk like a child.

Watch Ali in the 60's and ask yourself how many times you see him initiate a clinch or get hit with a punch.

I urge everyone to watch Ali vs Earnie Terrell (WBA world heavyweight title 1967, Terell at that time 38-4). Ali runs away the whole fight, Terell has no clue what to do: As soon as he comes closer to Ali, Ali clinches, grabs his neck and insults him. Ali lands some weak shots (how could they be strong when he is punching while running backwards?). ANY modern heavy would walk THROUGH Terell. Ali went 15 rounds with him.

What kind of a feather-fist could have stoppage wins over Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, Jerry Quarry?

Sorry, I don't think that anyone here will ack that Ali had a decent punch.

In his whole career Ali had 15 KOs within 12 rounds against 200+ opponents. That's 48% (15 of 37). That's like Chris Byrd. And that's already including drugged Foreman.

Comparing Chris Byrd to Joe Frazier is an utter joke.

Chris Byrd had 19 KOs against 200+ opponents. Frazier only 10. KOratio of Byrd and Frazier are approx the same (50%). Byrd won 5 world title fights (median opponent at bout 36-5), Frazier 6 (median 39-11).

Byrd's average weight was 213 lbs (median self) vs 225 lbs (median opponents), while Frazier was basically a cruiser beating cruisers: 205 lbs (self) vs 201 (opponents). They are VERY comparable, with Byrd having the better record. Beating Byrd means more than beating Frazier.

Did you know that Chris Byrd was fighting at 140 lbs when he was 20 years old?

Please no examples from Amateur bouts or Olympics.

Frazier was always 205-215 lbs. He knocked out over 70% of his opponents, hardly feather-fisted.

Who cares that he KOed Chuck Leslie (177 lbs) or Doug Jones (188). I also don't care that Evander Holyfield KOed Rivera (169, 13-3) or Fred Brown (169lbs, 19-37). Meaningless wins for a valid heavyweight comparison.

Frazier's 73% KOrate melts when you delete all the bums and sub-200ers. He had 10 KOs in his whole career (200+ opponents). If you delete bums like Turnbow (8-13) then what stays? In his whole career Frazier had only 4 KOs against better 200+ opponents (better = those who win 75% or more): 2x against Jimmy Ellis who boxed as low as 155, 1x against fatty Buster Mathis and 1x against Chuvalo (Fraziers best KO). Frazier is as overhyped as others in the 70ies.

That Ali had so much problems with Frazier tells more about how limited Ali was, not how good Frazier was. Frazier belongs there where Foreman put him. Having said that: Frazier is more exciting to watch that Ali. I really like Frazier.

[The Hammer]

Awesome post, knn!

TheGreatA doesn't like Europeans fighters, especially the Klitschko brothers. He's too mature to bash them directly by calling them "Euro-bums", so he does it in more subtle ways.

For example, TheGreatA has posted a video about a hundred times of Vitali vs. his worst opponent ever, Mike Acklie, a short-notice replacement for Vitali's 4th professional fight. He kept posting the video with a comment like "Vitali fought poor opposition", to try to deceive people into believing that Vitali fought only bums like Acklie.

[El_Cholo]

how did he contract Hep B?

[Sorbetero]

wow.... too much postponing..