Tyson vs Lewis Primes

[Dave Rado]

Tyson was never tested by anyone noteworthy under Kevin Rooney so how can you say he would have beaten any version of Lennox Lewis? Its all based on wishful thinking and not on any facts.

Neither Benny nor I have ever said Tyson would win, just that it's not a slam dunk that Lewis would, and that in your posts you consistently under-rate Tyson's skills during the Rooney era, and the importance of Rooney to him performing as he did during that period; and consistently over-rate the relevance of résumé in the context of a prime for prime fantasy match-up.

You also seem to seriously under-rate Holmes as well, which doesn't help your credibility.

And you keep using very simplistic arguments to justify your positions, like over-stressing the importance of the fact that Lewis beat everyone he faced, ignoring the fact that he didn't face Holyfield or Tyson in their primes, or Bowe at all. Maybe he'd have beaten all of them in their primes, who knows, but the fact that he beat two of them when they were no longer in their primes is not evidence for that. Your apparent belief that it is, is what constitutes wishful thinking.

[them_apples]

Neither Benny nor I have ever said Tyson would win, just that it's not a slam dunk that Lewis would, and that in your posts you consistently under-rate Tyson's skills during the Rooney era, and the importance of Rooney to him performing as he did during that period; and consistently over-rate the relevance of résumé in the context of a prime for prime fantasy match-up.

How was Lewis tested more so? he fought Tysons left over's, Past it Holyfields, The shell of a former Morrison, he never fought a single prime fighter that makes his competition looks so much better than Mikes. Marginally better because of quantity perhaps.

Lewis just fought a lot of "good" fighters, nothing special. He came at a time when the best fighters were on their way out. The Morrison that fought Foreman could have gave him huge trouble, the Holyfield that fought Foreman would have beat him.

sry I was replying to the quoted text in your post*

[Poet682006]

Don't you find it weird that Holmes is flat on his back with his arms spread open? When someone is generally trying to get up they don't lie on their back in a relaxed state. If he was struggling to get up bu the ref wouldn't let him then I'd see the point. He looked pretty lifeless to me. I re watched it a few times.

the post fight interview Holmes seemed like he was just recovering from a KO.

You are getting mad at BLeonard but he's arguing a logical point. I really couldn't see Holmes getting up to beat 10. The most I could see is him stumbling up and falling again.

Sorry, but I'm still too pissed off over this douche bag to give a proper reply. I will say that apparently in his little pee brain Tyson's victory is somehow "tarnished" if Holmes could get up. Screw him. If that's the kind of petty fan-boi BS he's going to bring to the table then he can go **** himself. I'm tempted to drop Tyson from #10 down to #12 on my ATG list just to irk the azzhole.

Poet

[Dave Rado]

Sorry, but I'm still too pissed off over this douche bag to give a proper reply. I will say that apparently in his little pee brain Tyson's victory is somehow "tarnished" if Holmes could get up. Screw him. If that's the kind of petty fan-boi BS he's going to bring to the table then he can go **** himself. I'm tempted to drop Tyson from #10 down to #12 on my ATG list just to irk the azzhole.

Poet

This seems like a personal vendetta to me. I don't honestly see how Holmes could have got up either but I don't see why it matters either way. Seems to me that it matters to both you and Benny simply because you both like to be right, and for no other reason.

If you must continue with it, please could you take it off-line?

And Benny and you are (other than this weird exchange) two of the best and most knowledgeable posters on here, so it's crazy for you to be throwing insults at each other. Neither of you are douche bags.

[LEFTYGUNZZ]

Neither Benny nor I have ever said Tyson would win, just that it's not a slam dunk that Lewis would, and that in your posts you consistently under-rate Tyson's skills during the Rooney era, and the importance of Rooney to him performing as he did during that period; and consistently over-rate the relevance of résumé in the context of a prime for prime fantasy match-up.

You also seem to seriously under-rate Holmes as well, which doesn't help your credibility.

And you keep using very simplistic arguments to justify your positions, like over-stressing the importance of the fact that Lewis beat everyone he faced, ignoring the fact that he didn't face Holyfield or Tyson in their primes, or Bowe at all. Maybe he'd have beaten all of them in their primes, who knows, but the fact that he beat two of them when they were no longer in their primes is not evidence for that. Your apparent belief that it is, is what constitutes wishful thinking.

How was Lewis tested more so? he fought Tysons left over's, Past it Holyfields, The shell of a former Morrison, he never fought a single prime fighter that makes his competition looks so much better than Mikes. Marginally better because of quantity perhaps.

Lewis just fought a lot of "good" fighters, nothing special. He came at a time when the best fighters were on their way out. The Morrison that fought Foreman could have gave him huge trouble, the Holyfield that fought Foreman would have beat him.

sry I was replying to the quoted text in your post*

A prime hugny well trained Iron mike steam rolls Lewis and Holyfield prime for prime. I said it. The Tyson that was coached by Rooney not eh maniac that came after. The guy who was nice and well mannered in public and spoke about boxing history in interviews like no other prodigy I have ever seen on tape. this kid was the "REAL DEAL ALL PUN INTENDED" He would bob and weave his way around Lewis' jab and crack that glass chin in 3 rounds. i can see it the ripping hooks and uppercut combos to the body the over hand right Lewis was trembling over the Tyson he fought in 2002. The one punch fighter looking for another big pay day. Not the Iron Mike on a mission to make Cus' prediction come true. That Mike would have beat Lewis and asked Holyfield if he wanted some too.

To discredit the Holmes win is pure dislike for a misguided soul and trying to be little his accomplishments to prove a point in which you are only making your self look biased and foolish. If you say Lewis is all that because he first fought to a draw with Evander and then beat Holyfield be a close decision 7ears after Holmes fought to a close decision with Evander which was 7 years after Tyson knocked Holmes the F out....Really listen to yourself stop think line those things up and repeat it again....If you say Lewis is all that because he first fought to a draw with Evander and then beat Holyfield be a close decision 7ears after Holmes fought to a close decision with Evander which was 7 years after Tyson knocked Holmes the F out....really?? Then to go and say Lewis avenged his losses and beat everyone he fought great accomplishment but we aren't talking about the better resumes we are talking head to head prime for prime.....Lefty

[boojee]

Tyson all the way. Put it this way, a prime Micheal Spinks would probably outbox a prime Lewis.

[Boogie Nights]

Sorry, but I'm still too pissed off over this douche bag to give a proper reply. I will say that apparently in his little pee brain Tyson's victory is somehow "tarnished" if Holmes could get up. Screw him. If that's the kind of petty fan-boi BS he's going to bring to the table then he can go **** himself. I'm tempted to drop Tyson from #10 down to #12 on my ATG list just to irk the azzhole.

Poet

it seems like everybody who disagrees with your hatred towards mike is an *******. Why dont you go into another thread and see what others are saying about the stoppage. Looks like you the only one with that opinion.

you know what, why dont you go **** yourself. Do everyone on this forum this great favor.

[Benny Leonard]

This is where we have a difference of opinion. I believe he quit in the Douglas fight. I also believe he quit in the 1st Holyfield fight. A supremely talented individual like Tyson can quit mentally and still look pretty decent in the ring.

We know Tyson can handle pressure from a good fighter like Ruddock, but we have no idea how he would react to an elite fighter like Lennox, Vitali or Evander. Tyson was never tested by anyone noteworthy under Kevin Rooney so how can you say he would have beaten any version of Lennox Lewis? Its all based on wishful thinking and not on any facts.

So you are buying the Teddy Atlas theory or are you on line with what I would say which is that Tyson quit after Spinks?
Not sure which one you are with. I'm more on line with he quit after Spinks because he stopped taking his career seriously and didn't prepare the same. In a way, that is quitting.

But Tyson didn't quit against Douglas if we base it soley on what took place in the ring and all the elements involved. First you have to remember that Tyson was not in the best shape and when you are not in the best shape, it will effect you mentally. Most fighters after they exhaust will find a way out either by laying up against the ropes and take punishment without swinging back so the ref can stop it....get hit and go down on a knee...foul out...do something illegal...and not come out the next round.
Tyson kept coming forward despite being tired. He was getting his ass kicked from at least the 2nd round and even in the first, started taking heavy shots.

I made a thread about this so you can review that thread if you like. I wrote a bit of what I thought

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272029

I've also stated a while back about the overrating of Tyson and it touched on what you said towards the end. In a way, we don't really know in full how good he was because by the time he did step up to elite fighters like Holyfield and Lewis, he was no longer at his best. We can only see certan things from when he was trained under Rooney when he fought his opponents that match up and compare.
And this is why I'm not with some others calling Tyson the best ever.

And like Tyson, we've seen Lewis vulnerable as well.

[Benny Leonard]

Sorry, but I'm still too pissed off over this douche bag to give a proper reply. I will say that apparently in his little pee brain Tyson's victory is somehow "tarnished" if Holmes could get up. Screw him. If that's the kind of petty fan-boi BS he's going to bring to the table then he can go **** himself. I'm tempted to drop Tyson from #10 down to #12 on my ATG list just to irk the azzhole.

Poet

NO, that wasn't what I was getting at. Tyson's win can't be tarnished because...ONE...it was a past prime Holmes so even if we call it a good win, it wasn't a great win...and TWO...even if Holmes did manage to get up, he would have went right back down and out anyway even though I still say he was KTFO already so he wasn't getting up. So either way, Tyson wins by KO. Holmes gets up, he goes down even worse. It's going to happen no matter what.

And I like your talk

[Joeyzagz]

And you keep using very simplistic arguments to justify your positions, like over-stressing the importance of the fact that Lewis beat everyone he faced, ignoring the fact that he didn't face Holyfield or Tyson in their primes, or Bowe at all. Maybe he'd have beaten all of them in their primes, who knows, but the fact that he beat two of them when they were no longer in their primes is not evidence for that.

This is the reason Bowe chickened out from a Lewis fight.



I guess Bowe calculated how those blows would feel without head gear and just said the hell with it. Lennox actively pursued all of the young top heavyweights of the 90's but was denied by King and was actually paid MILLIONS of dollars to not face Holyfield or Tyson. Lennox was the most feared man in boxing for the majority of the 90's.

So you are buying the Teddy Atlas theory or are you on line with what I would say which is that Tyson quit after Spinks?
Not sure which one you are with. I'm more on line with he quit after Spinks because he stopped taking his career seriously and didn't prepare the same. In a way, that is quitting.
.

I think Tyson was just so damn talented that his version of mailing it in was better than most peoples best. Even in that infamous fight with the Scranton kid HE WAS WINNING by a landslide, but he had already quit in his head, and was on the verge of throwing in the towel. Deep down he was always insecure about himself..before Rooney, after Rooney and even when he was with Rooney. Its part of him and it never left.