nikolai valuev is an ATG and is better than Lewis

[-----------]

My intention was to show that there have been more than a couple of fighters who retired unbeaten throughout the history of boxing.

If asked whether there were any heavyweights champions who retired at the top then the options become more limited of course.

In the past 100 years there has only been one, Rocky Marciano, but does the fact that he was undefeated make him the greatest of them all? He fought in an era during which the competition was limited and retired just at the right time before Liston, Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams came into the heavyweight picture.

I give him credit for never having an "off night" (as Louis, Lewis, Holmes, Tyson did) and for not fighting past his prime (as Jeffries, Sullivan, Ali and many others did) but as far as his longevity, championship reign and resume are concerned, he shouldn't rate right at the top. He is a top 10 heavyweight in my opinion but not the greatest, just one of the greatest.

I've got Ali as my greatest Heavyweight, then Joe Louis.

Marciano might be in my top 10, but I haven't put alot of thought into it to be totally honest.

[TysonFury_ATG]

won 50 (KO 34) + lost 1 (KO 0) + drawn 0

KO percentage= 65

WBA Ordinary World heavyweight title holder

NABA heavyweight title holder

WBA Inter-Continental Heavyweight Title holder

PABA heavyweight title holder

Russia heavyweight title holder

He's a giant, would have outboxed Lennox Lewis and k.o'd him in 6, would wipe the floor with the Klits in 3, and would beat Ali and Frazier in UD. TOP 3 HEAVYWEIGHT EVER. Legend.

You're an idiot if you believe any of this, but i suspect you don't.

[Slimey Limey]

That they were "bums" is an opinion which you are entitled to.

That many of them were top 10 ranked at the time and some later inducted into the hall of fame is a fact..

And those facts do not make his resume or legacy greater because those opponents were still mostly ****, just like your arguments and you as a poster.

Retired unbeaten heavyweights from recent times:

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...4589&cat=boxer
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...1914&cat=boxer

Undefeated HW champion from the bareknuckle era:
http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/ind...er/pearce.html

When I said you're grasping at straws I wasn't kidding. Now you're going back hundreds of years to find something, and then you have two utter ****stains that were probably not even known in their own country.

These are repeated attempts to discredit Marciano, and you FAIL every single time you try. WHy can't you simply acknowledge that Rocky was the only ATG HW that accomplished this instead of digging and digging and digging and coming up short, making yourself look like the moron you are?

[TheGreatA]

And those facts do not make his resume or legacy greater because those opponents were still mostly ****, just like your arguments and you as a poster.

It does make his legacy greater. The consensus is that Joe Louis ranks among the top 2 heavyweights along with Muhammad Ali.

You may dispute this but you cannot dispute that the majority would disagree with you.

When I said you're grasping at straws I wasn't kidding. Now you're going back hundreds of years to find something, and then you have two utter ****stains that were probably not even known in their own country.

These are repeated attempts to discredit Marciano, and you FAIL every single time you try. WHy can't you simply acknowledge that Rocky was the only ATG HW that accomplished this instead of digging and digging and digging and coming up short, making yourself look like the moron you are?

I never said that he wasn't. I'm only questioning how meaningful that accomplishment truly is.

Is it as meaningful as Joe Louis reigning over 10 years as heavyweight champion and making 25 title defenses of his crown?

Is it as meaningful as Ali being out of boxing for 3 years and coming back at 32 years of age to regain the title against an undefeated heavyweight destroyed like George Foreman?

Is it as meaningful as George Foreman coming back at 45 years of age to regain the heavyweight title?

Marciano was undefeated for sure. He never had off nights like Lennox Lewis did nor did he fight past his prime to ruin his record like Sullivan and Jeffries did.

Who did he fight though? 37 year old Joe Louis, 39 (or 42) year old Archie Moore, 39 year old Jersey Joe Walcott... Not a single world class contender over 6'3 or 210 pounds. I'll say this, if Marciano fought as a light heavyweight he may have been known as the greatest light heavyweight of all time because of his wins over ATG light heavyweights. Unfortunately those wins do not count as much at heavyweight.

As it is, he will always be ranked among the top 10 heavyweights. There's just no argument to rank him in the top 3 in my opinion.

[portuge puncher]

this is a joke thread right? he's fought a bunch of bums, there are no real good heavywieghts around, and you say he could beat ali, frazier, and lennox, stop smokein' bong and get real. the only thing he has is hight, plus he has to be one of the most boring fighters to ever fight.

[TheGreatA]

It does make his legacy greater. The consensus is that Joe Louis ranks among the top 2 heavyweights along with Muhammad Ali.

You may dispute this but you cannot dispute that the majority would disagree with you.



I never said that he wasn't. I'm only questioning how meaningful that accomplishment truly is.

Is it as meaningful as Joe Louis reigning over 10 years as heavyweight champion and making 25 title defenses of his crown?

Is it as meaningful as Ali being out of boxing for 3 years and coming back at 32 years of age to regain the title against an undefeated heavyweight destroyed like George Foreman?

Is it as meaningful as George Foreman coming back at 45 years of age to regain the heavyweight title?

Marciano was undefeated for sure. He never had off nights like Lennox Lewis did nor did he fight past his prime to ruin his record like Sullivan and Jeffries did.

Who did he fight though? 37 year old Joe Louis, 39 (or 42) year old Archie Moore, 39 year old Jersey Joe Walcott... Not a single world class contender over 6'3 or 210 pounds. I'll say this, if Marciano fought as a light heavyweight he may be known as the greatest light heavyweight of all time because of his wins over ATG light heavyweights. Unfortunately those wins do not count as much at heavyweight.

As it is, he will always be ranked among the top 10 heavyweights. There's just no argument to rank him in the top 3 in my opinion.

There are also numerous controversies about Marciano's record.

Are you aware that Marciano fought in a Golden Gloves amateur tournament after his professional debut and lost to Coley Wallace?

He was also very lucky to get the decisions that he was given against Roland LaStarza (the first time) and Tiger Ted Lowry, a light heavyweight journeyman.

The first LaStarza fight was scored even in rounds by the judges but because a winner was needed, the referee gave the fight to Marciano based on a knockdown he had scored in the 7th round. Rocky won a split decision.

Against Ted Lowry, Marciano was reportedly out on his feet by the 4th round but Lowry decided to coast the rest of the rounds to what seemed would be a decision for him. The local newspapers had Lowry winning the fight and none of the ringside observers felt Marciano had done enough to win.

One of the judges of that fight later went onto say that there was no way Lowry could have ever won the fight under those circumstances.

To Marciano's credit he later avenged both of those controversies in rematches.

[MaFu MoFo]

Holy ****!!! Valuev an ATG??? That's what I called a wet dream... That weed in your neighborhood is awesome. Where do you live???

[Slimey Limey]

It does make his legacy greater. The consensus is that Joe Louis ranks among the top 2 heavyweights along with Muhammad Ali.

You may dispute this but you cannot dispute that the majority would disagree with you.



I never said that he wasn't. I'm only questioning how meaningful that accomplishment truly is.

Is it as meaningful as Joe Louis reigning over 10 years as heavyweight champion and making 25 title defenses of his crown?

Is it as meaningful as Ali being out of boxing for 3 years and coming back at 32 years of age to regain the title against an undefeated heavyweight destroyed like George Foreman?

Is it as meaningful as George Foreman coming back at 45 years of age to regain the heavyweight title?

Marciano was undefeated for sure. He never had off nights like Lennox Lewis did nor did he fight past his prime to ruin his record like Sullivan and Jeffries did.

Who did he fight though? 37 year old Joe Louis, 39 (or 42) year old Archie Moore, 39 year old Jersey Joe Walcott... Not a single world class contender over 6'3 or 210 pounds. I'll say this, if Marciano fought as a light heavyweight he may have been known as the greatest light heavyweight of all time because of his wins over ATG light heavyweights. Unfortunately those wins do not count as much at heavyweight.

As it is, he will always be ranked among the top 10 heavyweights. There's just no argument to rank him in the top 3 in my opinion.

If people would study his bum of the month club title reign he would be ranked much lower. Same reason Holmes isn't, because he was never hyped up like Louis. The top 2 is Lennox Lewis and a tie between Ali and Marciano. Louis ranks in the bottom of the top 10. Maybe top 15.

It is very meaningfull because he is the only one to do it. Louis is the only one with 25 title defenses yet that is very very meaningful to you, isn't it Manmachine? Foreman is the only one to win the title at 45. Again, very meaningfull to the youtube machine. But Marciano? That's a diffirent story ay mate?

And I see you mentioning ATG fighters only by their age. Very convenient there copright infringing machine. Maybe you forgot how well they fought against Marciano and showed they still were great. What you did was you nitpicked his record, which can be done to a lot of fighters. How about you do the same to louis? Probably cause it would be true.

Further. Now you're crying about SIZE? Oh wait a second mate, aren't you the one that supports the old timers the most? Marciano fought bigger fighters than himself. It is irrelevant what size they were in 1894 or will be in 2078. He fought in his time and you judge him accordingly, in his time. I just love how size is never an issue for you, but Marciano? That is a diffirent story ay mate?

There you go. I exposed you as the Marciano hating fraud that you are. You can't hide this from me mate.

P.S. I also love how in your second post you are crying about Marciano's close fights yet you would NEVER ever admit Louis had gift decisions or close fights. This is what defines you.

[GJC]

My intention was to show that there have been more than a couple of fighters who retired unbeaten throughout the history of boxing.

If asked whether there were any heavyweights champions who retired at the top then the options become more limited of course.

In the past 100 years there has only been one, Rocky Marciano, but does the fact that he was undefeated make him the greatest of them all? He fought in an era during which the competition was limited and retired just at the right time before Liston, Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams came into the heavyweight picture.

I give him credit for never having an "off night" (as Louis, Lewis, Holmes, Tyson did) and for not fighting past his prime (as Jeffries, Sullivan, Ali and many others did) but as far as his longevity, championship reign and resume are concerned, he shouldn't rate right at the top. He is a top 10 heavyweight in my opinion but not the greatest, just one of the greatest.

A lot of fair points there, can't see any of those next generation bar Liston beating Marciano mind. Unfortunate more for Marciano not to get the opportunity to get better names on the record. Marciano beat everyone in front of him can't do more.

[GJC]

If people would study his bum of the month club title reign he would be ranked much lower. Same reason Holmes isn't, because he was never hyped up like Louis. The top 2 is Lennox Lewis and a tie between Ali and Marciano. Louis ranks in the bottom of the top 10. Maybe top 15.

It is very meaningfull because he is the only one to do it. Louis is the only one with 25 title defenses yet that is very very meaningful to you, isn't it Manmachine? Foreman is the only one to win the title at 45. Again, very meaningfull to the youtube machine. But Marciano? That's a diffirent story ay mate?

And I see you mentioning ATG fighters only by their age. Very convenient there copright infringing machine. Maybe you forgot how well they fought against Marciano and showed they still were great. What you did was you nitpicked his record, which can be done to a lot of fighters. How about you do the same to louis? Probably cause it would be true.

Further. Now you're crying about SIZE? Oh wait a second mate, aren't you the one that supports the old timers the most? Marciano fought bigger fighters than himself. It is irrelevant what size they were in 1894 or will be in 2078. He fought in his time and you judge him accordingly, in his time. I just love how size is never an issue for you, but Marciano? That is a diffirent story ay mate?

There you go. I exposed you as the Marciano hating fraud that you are. You can't hide this from me mate.

P.S. I also love how in your second post you are crying about Marciano's close fights yet you would NEVER ever admit Louis had gift decisions or close fights. This is what defines you.

No way Louis would get ranked 10-15. I think to rank him any lower than 3 would be crazy. Personally I rank him 2 with Ali 1st. Joe Louis record is fantastic though how can anyone even attempt to try and denigrate it. OK he lost to Schmeling, Schmeling was a smart fighter and took advantage of a flaw in a young fighter. If more fighters took tough fights lost and learned from them they would improve. The return was a slaughter and must rank as one of the most brutal beatings given. One of the decisions against Walcott was a bad call but every fighter gets those. Also Walcott did get on his bike in the latter rounds a bit, in that era fighters were expected to take the title convincingly.
By the time of the Charles fight he was finished really, ditto Marciano.
I will always defend Rocky against some of the harsher criticism given in here but not by denegrating a fighter like Joe Louis.