Will Klitschko-Gomez Prove To Be A Bracket Buster?

[βetamax]

You can answer that question far better than I can, because you are one of those people youself.

You've never made a positive comment about a white fighter since you joined here, except to acknowledge that the Klitschkos help to build schools in Africa. You support every black fighter, unless he's lost to a white boxer. You always root for the boxer with the darker skin.

You make negative comments about white fighters, such as Arthur Abraham's punches being "ugly" and that he has no boxing ability just power, and you ridiculed some commentators for suggesting Fedor is a great MMA fighter. You posted gifs on your sig of black fighters beating up white or Hispanic fighters.

So please, answer your own question.

Yea, point the finger at me to get out of the questions I brought up. You do this every time to deflect attention away from yourself when people question your racist motives. Your comments are filled with half-truths and lies to make me look racist and I'm not going to get play into your strategy.

How about answering the questions? Or should I go ahead and post what you really feel on the "other" forum?

[Chase8400]

First, I'm only talking about his fans on here. Second, I didn't say ALL his fans on here are racists. Your being very naive if you can't the agenda of some of them. I have proof that at least one Klitschko fan *cough* within this thread spends their time on a white supremacist forum.

I have grew up in the center of all aspects of racism and I am well educated in that facet to be able to make a call on the matter from BOTH sides. In my expert opinion, the posters in this thread have been pointing out that allot of the Klitschko acceptence has to do with possible racism and have not been making remarks in that nature themselves. The first one to point the finger is not always the one with the agenda. Were not talking about passing gas here. Furthermore, I don't know anyone personally so I cannot back them for what goes on behind their PC's but you are off-base as far as statements that have been made on this thread go.

[βetamax]

I have grew up in the center of all aspects of racism and I am well educated in that facet to be able to make a call on the matter from BOTH sides. In my expert opinion, the posters in this thread have been pointing out that allot of the Klitschko acceptence has to do with possible racism and have not been making remarks in that nature themselves. The first one to point the finger is not always the one with the agenda. Were not talking about passing gas here. Furthermore, I don't know anyone personally so I cannot back them for what goes on behind their PC's but you are off-base as far as statements that have been made on this thread go.

What are "both sides"?

Do racial stereotypes exist? Sure. My question however is who are these people why don't they want to see white athletes succeed?

If we're just taking about a small minority who don't represent the mainstream view then why care since it has no impact in the real world.

[Chase8400]

What are "both sides"?.

Those whom I have to associated with and those whom are racist against myself. Unfortunately It has been a part of my life from day one and as an optimist I have been able to live beyond it, but It has effected me allot directly.

Do racial stereotypes exist? Sure. My question however is who are these people why don't they want to see white athletes succeed?.

Is that a Seinfeld quip?
No, seriously though. I'm not sure if they (fans being of African descent or boxing sportswriters are what I asume that Rocky is refering to) just do not want to see white athletes succeed as a whole, it's just that they may not be too accepting of a dominant champion that does not fit into the mold of what the heavyweight champ has been for so long. Hence, 'the great white hope', etc.

If we're just taking about a small minority who don't represent the mainstream view then why care since it has no impact in the real world.

It doesn't have an impact on the whole world but apparently it does have an impact on boxing itself and it's adoring fans. The heavyweights have long been the biggest draw in boxing and without it being a strong and recognized division in the mainstream, boxing will never be what it once was. This is going on no matter if you choose to accept it or not. The flack the champions recieve may have something to do with the styles of the fighters, but if you say the color of their skin has nothing to do with it, you sir are the one who is naive.

[βetamax]

Those whom I have to associated with and those whom are racist against myself. Unfortunately It has been a part of my life from day one and as an optimist I have been able to live beyond it, but It has effected me allot directly.



Is that a Seinfeld quip?
No, seriously though. I'm not sure if they (fans being of African descent or boxing sportswriters are what I asume that Rocky is refering to) just do not want to see white athletes succeed as a whole, it's just that they may not be too accepting of a dominant champion that does not fit into the mold of what the heavyweight champ has been for so long. Hence, 'the great white hope', etc.



It doesn't have an impact on the whole world but apparently it does have an impact on boxing itself and it's adoring fans. The heavyweights have long been the biggest draw in boxing and without it being a strong and recognized division in the mainstream, boxing will never be what it once was. This is going on no matter if you choose to accept it or not. The flack the champions recieve may have something to do with the styles of the fighters, but if you say the color of their skin has nothing to do with it, you sir are the one who is naive.

It still doesn't make sense to me to suggest that the mainstream media and fans, which is white dominated, would not want to accept a white heavyweight for whatever reason. That says to me that white favoritism doesn't exist which flies in the face of the fact that we still live a racist society that places whites above non-whites. Just because people might hold stereotypes about white athletes it does not mean they don't want white athletes to succeed. Racism in it's simplest form is: power + prejudice. Black people simply don't have the power to enforce their views on white people, not that I even believe that black people as a whole are against seeing a white heavyweight. I believe if there is some resistance it has more to do more with being defensive since historically mainstream society has always been quick to embrace white athletes over black athletes, hence the "great white hope".

Just look at examples in history of whites becoming overly successful in black dominated fields.

Elvis is a prime example. He went on to become a huge success while black artists who were equally if not more talented never amounted to anything. Recently a similar thing happened in hip-hop with Eminem which shows this kind of thing still goes on today. Look at the love for white quarterbacks in the NFL such as Brett Favee, Manning, etc. Hell, there's an ad I keep seeing here for a Tom Brady endorsed cologne called "All American" (code for white American).

The point I'm making is not that white athletes will always be more popular than black athletes, that being white simply provides a boost. An exciting black fighter will almost always have more fans than a mediocre white fighter, for example. So that leads me to ask why the Klitschkos are not popular in the US and I can think of many reasons other than them being white. Such as the fact that boxing has been on the decline here for a while. It could be that Americans are less likely to embrace them since they aren't American. As others have suggested it could be that many people find their style boring or that the heavyweight division is weak right now. How many heavyweights crack the top 50 P4P list?

[Chase8400]

I would like to start by saying that I respect your style or rebuttal and absolutely value your opinion. A+ , no matter what comes next my friend.

It still doesn't make sense to me to suggest that the mainstream media and fans, which is white dominated?

Where do you get this figure? Without proof, the point is invalid. It's an educated guess alone.

would not want to accept a white heavyweight for whatever reason. That says to me that white favoritism doesn't exist which flies in the face of the fact that we still live a racist society that places whites above non-whites.?

I have to dissagree. It is popular to have 'soul' and/or to behave like the percieved average 'African American' acts in society everywhere now. Things have changed allot since about the mid 90's. That is not me just talking, it's a known fact. As you say later, Eminim became popular and sells a ton of albums because of this. The majority of his fans are white kids who desire and urban rep, etc. That is the reflection of most of the white population's willingness to meld and jive together. I happen to know it works both ways, but the average African American does not accept a 'white acting' brother as easily as the other way around. I've lived it. I know.

Just because people might hold stereotypes about white athletes it does not mean they don't want white athletes to succeed.

That's not what I am saying. I am saying, and I'll repeat myself:
The public expects them to fail, therefore they are not as excepting of their success when they do the unexpected. If you get my meaning. I think this has allot to do with what the Klitschko's are experiencing and nobody directly is to blame. It is what it is. There may be no way to reverse that so they will just have to obliterate the competition until they are respected and popularity will follow. It's easy to admire an uncompromising man.

Racism in it's simplest form is: power + prejudice. Black people simply don't have the power to enforce their views on white people, not that I even believe that black people as a whole are against seeing a white heavyweight. I believe if there is some resistance it has more to do more with being defensive since historically mainstream society has always been quick to embrace white athletes over black athletes, hence the "great white hope".

There's nothing simple about racism and it certainly doesn't come down to power and prejudice. There are many factors over a long period of time that I don't have the time to delve into. The great white hype was created by the media and promoters to draw attention to boxing by getting the average white sports fan envolved again. The notion was created because there had been no serious white contenders since the days of Marciano. That had almost been 3 decades. It was still a known thing that African Americans ruled the division and society accepted it. That's why Mike Tyson was billed as and accepted so wholeheartedy to be the next great thing right off the bat. I saw his 12th fight and they were comparing him to Frazier already.

Just look at examples in history of whites becoming overly successful in black dominated fields.

Elvis is a prime example. He went on to become a huge success while black artists who were equally if not more talented never amounted to anything. Recently a similar thing happened in hip-hop with Eminem which shows this kind of thing still goes on today. Look at the love for white quarterbacks in the NFL such as Brett Favee, Manning, etc. Hell, there's an ad I keep seeing here for a Tom Brady endorsed cologne called "All American" (code for white American).

Elvis made it accepted publicly with that genre of music. He introduced the music to the mainstream population. He didn't become a hit because he was white. He more-less took what was already there and improved on it to create his own art and issued it to an audience that was wanting something like that and clinged to it after WWII. E-P was incredibly talented and earned any benefits he reaped from his perceverence and efforts. Elvis was one of the most talented, yet generous musicians of all time and that was his appeal. It was not just because he was white at all. He just happened to be a good looking white guy as a bonus at the time.

The point I'm making is not that white athletes will always be more popular than black athletes, that being white simply provides a boost. An exciting black fighter will almost always have more fans than a mediocre white fighter, for example. So that leads me to ask why the Klitschkos are not popular in the US and I can think of many reasons other than them being white. Such as the fact that boxing has been on the decline here for a while. It could be that Americans are less likely to embrace them since they aren't American. As others have suggested it could be that many people find their style boring or that the heavyweight division is weak right now. How many heavyweights crack the top 50 P4P list?

How so? Who were the most recognized athletes of all time? Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods. I gaurantee the people today who recognize those names would have no idea who you were talking about if you asked them who a Klitschko was or Marciano. Even Jack Nicholas for that matter. What about Larry Bird? There is no benefit to being a white athlete in this era. If anything it gives a perception of inferiority and hinders an athlete now days. I think you have missed on allot of points in that post and would love to elaborate more but due to my busy schedule, I gotta go. It has taken me a couple hours just to respond to this one. That's a bad sign, lol. We will have to just agree to dissagree on this one.

Thanks for the intelligent conversation.

Sincerely, >Chase.

[βetamax]

I would like to start by saying that I respect your style or rebuttal and absolutely value your opinion. A+ , no matter what comes next my friend.

Thanks. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I appreciate when people are willing to have a respectful conversation without resorting to childish nonsense.

Where do you get this figure? Without proof, the point is invalid. It's an educated guess alone.

I think it's pretty obvious that whites make up mainstream America, I'm not sure if that's what you questioning me about. If it was the latter, sports media, I found this article where a study was conducted in '06 and found that around 90% of the sports editors and columnists are white.

http://news.ucf.edu/UCFnews/index?pa...708f&mode=news

I have to dissagree. It is popular to have 'soul' and/or to behave like the percieved average 'African American' acts in society everywhere now. Things have changed allot since about the mid 90's. That is not me just talking, it's a known fact. As you say later, Eminim became popular and sells a ton of albums because of this. The majority of his fans are white kids who desire and urban rep, etc. That is the reflection of most of the white population's willingness to meld and jive together. I happen to know it works both ways, but the average African American does not accept a 'white acting' brother as easily as the other way around. I've lived it. I know.

I agree with most of what your saying but I'm not exactly what your disagreeing with. Can you clarify?

There's nothing simple about racism and it certainly doesn't come down to power and prejudice. There are many factors over a long period of time that I don't have the time to delve into. The great white hype was created by the media and promoters to draw attention to boxing by getting the average white sports fan envolved again. The notion was created because there had been no serious white contenders since the days of Marciano. That had almost been 3 decades. It was still a known thing that African Americans ruled the division and society accepted it. That's why Mike Tyson was billed as and accepted so wholeheartedy to be the next great thing right off the bat. I saw his 12th fight and they were comparing him to Frazier already.

I agree, that's why I mentioned it's most simplest form. The point I was making is that without power, prejudice cannot be enforced in society. What your saying about the "great white hype" shows IMO that whites tolerated blacks ruling the heavyweight division yet weren't fully excepting of it either. Hence the reason they had to get white fighters involved to spark people's attention. If people were truly excepting of it then why care about seeing a white champ?

That's not what I am saying. I am saying, and I'll repeat myself:
The public expects them to fail, therefore they are not as excepting of their success when they do the unexpected. If you get my meaning. I think this has allot to do with what the Klitschko's are experiencing and nobody directly is to blame. It is what it is. There may be no way to reverse that so they will just have to obliterate the competition until they are respected and popularity will follow. It's easy to admire an uncompromising man.

I think I get what your trying to say and it's an interesting point but because of the reality of the situation it's hard to say if this is true because of the lack of solid competition. If there were well-regarded black heavyweights and the Klitschkos came along and beat them yet people didn't give them any credit then I might agree. I can tell you that in the NBA Steve Nash won two questionable MVP awards (which is voted on by the media) in a black dominated league.

Elvis made it accepted publicly with that genre of music. He introduced the music to the mainstream population. He didn't become a hit because he was white. He more-less took what was already there and improved on it to create his own art and issued it to an audience that was wanting something like that and clinged to it after WWII. E-P was incredibly talented and earned any benefits he reaped from his perceverence and efforts. Elvis was one of the most talented, yet generous musicians of all time and that was his appeal. It was not just because he was white at all. He just happened to be a good looking white guy as a bonus at the time.

I would have to say that he was given the mainstream opportunity because he was white. As I alluded to before, being white isn't a guarantee of success but it helps. Also, don't you see how it's a racial privilege if being a good looking white guy is a bonus?

How so? Who were the most recognized athletes of all time? Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods. I gaurantee the people today who recognize those names would have no idea who you were talking about if you asked them who a Klitschko was or Marciano. Even Jack Nicholas for that matter. What about Larry Bird? There is no benefit to being a white athlete in this era. If anything it gives a perception of inferiority and hinders an athlete now days.

Sure, those are some of the most popular athletes in sports history. However, for the most part, these are dominant athletes who played at a time when these sports had a lot of popularity. Take Jordan, for example. It goes back to my point - people accepting a great black athlete over a mediocre white athlete. There are no comparable white basketball players to him. Larry Bird was quite popular, BTW.

I think you have missed on allot of points in that post and would love to elaborate more but due to my busy schedule, I gotta go. It has taken me a couple hours just to respond to this one. That's a bad sign, lol. We will have to just agree to dissagree on this one.

No problem. These type of conversations definitely do requite a lot of though and time. If you can't respond or address everything then it's understandable.

[Don Johnson]

Whats wrong with the heavyweight division is not that the Klitschko brothers won't fight each other, that's BS. Vitali wasn't around from 2005 to 2008, and still the sportswriters complained.

The real problem is that the American sports media will not accept anyone named Klitschko as champion, and will continue being negative about (and usually ignoring) the heavyweight division until a black and preferably an American champion comes along.

always a race thing with u guys isn't? by u guys i mean, u, gene tunney, and WLAD OWNS i believe. The reason is because both brothers are about as boring to watch as watching rust form on metal.