The Hometown German-Style 8 Count

[Hitman932]

For all you know that ref may have been more passionate and knowledgeable than the average ref, and the fights he did previously referee were done very well.

I'm not saying that's the case. But you seem to have assumed in minutes he's at the complete opposite end of the scale, consistently bad, from a poor boxing country, and insinuated conspiring. It's just a bit heavy.

Well there is going to be an element of assumption to any thread like this as obviously nobody is going to come out and admit complete incompetence or conspiracy.

You can look at the ref's career work right here:

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...52&cat=referee

First you will notice that it was the first time he ever reffed a fight of any significance. The majority of his work being done in Spain and Hungary where boxing is hardly popular.

Second you will notice that Hernandez is the only fighter on the left column who has lost in all the fights he has done. The left column on boxrec almost always represents the "home" fighter and if it doesen't it is because the "away" fighter is champion.

So in all his career as a ref the house fighter has only lost once, and the one time he lost he helped the guy up.

I wish I had the fight in it's entirety so you could see how poorly the ref handled the rest of the fight. Hernandez was out on his feet in the video posted and should have been stopped right there. Instead the ref let him continue through 2 more knockdowns giving him extra time after the 2nd KD also. He even gave Hernandez a count on the third KD and was going to let the fight continue but Wegner yelled to stop it from the corner. The ref was going to do everything in his power to get Hernandez into the next round even if it meant jeopardizing his life. That is the action of someone who has an interest in a certain fighter winning, not the action of someone with the fighter's best interests in mind.

[Hitman932]

You want to talk about home style decisions.. !

We're not talking about decisions, we are talking about refs.

Thanks anyways.

[S A M U R A I]

Watch this fight between Johnathon Banks and Ralf Riemer to see how long a German ref will give a German fighter to recover even in the most hopeless of circumstances.

Riemer is dropped at 2:50 of the first round, the Ref administers the slowest 8 count of all time and then screws around for 5 more seconds. by the time the fights resumes 16 seconds have passed since the KD. With an 8-count and a glove check 10 seconds is the longest it should take. So a German fighter gets at least 50% longer to recover at home than he would abroad.


If a German ref gives 16 seconds to a nobody fighter against an up and coming American imagine how long Abraham would get to rise from a knockdown against Pavlik. My guess would be 25-30 seconds.

It's not that bad! He gives the guy a decent chance which is fair enough, then stops the fight a few seconds later. I don't see what the fuss is with this one, to be honest.



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[S A M U R A I]

Another nice 8 count here, this time the ref helps Hernandez to his feet and then begins the count after 7-8 seconds and after Hernandez had risen. I watched the fight in real time and Hernandez gets a total of 19 seconds to revocer from the KD.

LOL. That was bad though.



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[Scott9945]

For the most part German judges are pretty fair. Their referees are another matter though.

[Hitman932]

It's not that bad! He gives the guy a decent chance which is fair enough, then stops the fight a few seconds later. I don't see what the fuss is with this one, to be honest.

I agree it is not that bad.

I am just trying to make a simple point.

Boxing is a game of inches and sometimes seconds. If you have a ref that will give one guy 5 more seconds than the other under the exact same circumstance you can easily affect the outcome of the fight.

16 seconds I count from ass touching canvas to fight continuing.

I went back, for sake or comparison, and watched Banks fight with Eliseo Castillo where Banks was dropped in the first round. In that case Banks was the home fighter with an American Ref Eddie Cotton and it took 11 seconds from the time his ass touched until Castillo was back on top of him. 5 extra seconds would have been a huge help to him in that instance but he did not get it. he got 8 seconds for the 8 count and 2 more for Cotton to check his gloves and look into his eyes and that was it, fight on.

[Kris Silver]

Well there is going to be an element of assumption to any thread like this as obviously nobody is going to come out and admit complete incompetence or conspiracy.

You can look at the ref's career work right here:

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...52&cat=referee

First you will notice that it was the first time he ever reffed a fight of any significance. The majority of his work being done in Spain and Hungary where boxing is hardly popular.

Second you will notice that Hernandez is the only fighter on the left column who has lost in all the fights he has done. The left column on boxrec almost always represents the "home" fighter and if it doesen't it is because the "away" fighter is champion.

So in all his career as a ref the house fighter has only lost once, and the one time he lost he helped the guy up.

I wish I had the fight in it's entirety so you could see how poorly the ref handled the rest of the fight. Hernandez was out on his feet in the video posted and should have been stopped right there. Instead the ref let him continue through 2 more knockdowns giving him extra time after the 2nd KD also. He even gave Hernandez a count on the third KD and was going to let the fight continue but Wegner yelled to stop it from the corner. The ref was going to do everything in his power to get Hernandez into the next round even if it meant jeopardizing his life. That is the action of someone who has an interest in a certain fighter winning, not the action of someone with the fighter's best interests in mind.

Now that's better. I see what your getting at now. A good few of those fighters weren't really what you'd call home local guys though either, there from other nationalities. So it still isn't as black and white as you might think.

However I will concede here there's a reasonable amount of weight on the fact he shouldn't have been reffing such a big fight, and perhaps had some irregularities before. But you often do in fights all over when things come out, look back and see what was wrong with a much more critical eye. This is what you've done here, I just think it'd be easier than you'd think to do the same for a lot of other guys, if the video's and info presented themselves. It'd be depressing though.

I know Sauerland isn't great and Germany has some daft things happen in the ring, but it's not all bad and I just think a few things like this encourage a skewed dis proportionate view of how rife it is, that's perhaps why I've been so defensive. There's a lot of **** going on in boxing generally to be in a position to really point in one area. But anyways, good research and point taken.

[Hitman932]

There's a lot of **** going on in boxing generally to be in a position to really point in one area. But anyways, good research and point taken.

I agree with what you are saying and I know that what I am saying may be a stretch in some regards. I just think in this instance there are way too many red flags to simply ignore or pass it off as a slip up.

Now we can both agree that there is a lot of **** going on in boxing.

The question I am posing is this, does the fact that so much **** goes down in boxing have anything to do with the fact that when something like this is right there for everyone to see, nothing gets done about it?

Maybe boxing is screwed up because everytime a ref does something like this the only excuse needed was "Oh he was inexperienced"

I think Boxingscene should start it's own governing body and hire our own refs and if they mess up like this guy at least they're gonna get PWNed and have people curse them on their member page. That's much worse than this guy had to endure for butchering his work.

[Kris Silver]

I agree with what you are saying and I know that what I am saying may be a stretch in some regards. I just think in this instance there are way too many red flags to simply ignore or pass it off as a slip up.

Now we can both agree that there is a lot of **** going on in boxing.

The question I am posing is this, does the fact that so much **** goes down in boxing have anything to do with the fact that when something like this is right there for everyone to see, nothing gets done about it?

Maybe boxing is screwed up because everytime a ref does something like this the only excuse needed was "Oh he was inexperienced"

I think Boxingscene should start it's own governing body and hire our own refs and if they mess up like this guy at least they're gonna get PWNed and have people curse them on their member page. That's much worse than this guy had to endure for butchering his work.

LOL, sounds like a revolution. Look I'm way more disgusted and concerned with the current Margarito situation, that's blowing all proportions for me because it's fighters safety. That take's precedence over some old vid of a granted, dodgey ref. I think the whole plaster of paris thing is a vastly worser thing I'm stunned is getting such little attention now and think it is being delayed and covered up a little already, especially given evidence even fans have put together already.

I also tend to think bad things in the ring, are more obvious in say Germany then America, the UK, Africa's where there is a lot more subtle less obvious corruption. Clever corruption, if you will. But that's just me, it's a criticism of both. When **** does go wrong in Germany it's often pretty laughably obvious, silly stuff like that. The judges in Germany are usually ok despite regular beliefs to the contrary. We've had a fairly even share of controversies across the board and globe in the past year, from what I've seen, roughly speaking.

[Hitman932]

We've had a fairly even share of controversies across the board and globe in the past year, from what I've seen, roughly speaking.

Problem is it is very hard to now step in and make an example of someone for doing something that others have been getting away with for years.

Same type of situation where I work, they have all these **** ups and now that business is bad they want to come down on people for certain things but the person just turns and says "Well you let so and so do this 3 weeks ago and nothing got done about it....." and it is valid. To a certain extent it is discriminatory to punish someone for the same behavior/actions you have failed to acknowledge in the past.