Pragmatic Criticism of Recently Retired Undefeateds

[KnockoutTheFat]

Ok, if you want to play this game I'll play along. Had Nielsen retired when he was 49-0 or Campas retired when he was 56-0 do you think they'd have been in the hall of fame? The answer is no.

Now, Mayweather and Calzaghe on the other hand are "retired" and undefeated. They're 39-0 and 46-0 respectively. If neither was to ever fight again they'd still both be elected to the hall of fame. Yet, people will still question whether or not they retired with unfinished business. Do you think that is the case? If so, why?

That is the point of the this thread. I know that Julio Cesar Chavez was probably the best example of someone who could have retired with HOF worthy career having had a better record than Marciano. That's not the damn point of the thread and you know it.

The point is that both Mayweather and Calzaghe were more interested in retiring "on top." Than in reaching milestones, whether that's breaking Marciano's record or beating more fellow undefeated fighter, beating more champions, etc. I listed the fact that neither even tried to break Marciano's record as one major criticism.

Especially in Calzaghe's case he could have easily promoted the last part of his career as a quest to break Marciano's record and if he'd done so fighting good opposition he'd have gotten quite a bit more credit for it than he gets now, even if he'd fallen short of the record. That's the point of this thread...not so that you can debate the validity of Marciano's record.

If I'd wanted to talk about the validity of Marciano's record don't you think I'd have mentioned his name in the first post? I deliberately left it out so as not to get this thread down into a Marciano debate, but some of you people insist on doing that sort of stuff.

If that's the point then here's my explanation; let's say Mayweather wins 5 in a row and goes to 44-0. In those five fights let's say he beats Cotto, Mosley, a 154 lb champ, Paul Williams and a MW champion. Who else is there to fight? And if you want him to win 6 more fights to get to 50-0 that's fine but in the 6 more fights out there, who would be out there to test him? If he beat the 5 guys I just listed, who else would be out there? I guess what I'm trying to say is just get enough wins over the best competition to prove everybody wrong. If it just happens to be 5 more fights that I listed I'm all for it. 44-0 is good enough for me. He shouldn't have retired at 31 though, that was a bit odd actually.

Now in Calzaghe's case, that 50-0 record would probably be pretty good but the problem is there's not that many people he can fight; I can't think of 4 names that would give him any incentive to get to 50-0. The crop at LHW is **** cept for Dawson and he already had beaten B-Hop and Dawson had trouble w/ 39 year old Glen Johnson. If Cal beat Johnson everybody would say he beat another OLD MAN so there's no point in that. So if Dawson's the only name I can up with that he should fight that would only leave him at 47-0; but I don't think he really has to fight him though. If he wanted to though I think he could beat Adamek for the CW title but that's just me and he doesn't need that fight.

IMO they both retired at a bad time because at the point when they retired they got a lot of **** because of they way they did. Mayweather being only 31 and Calzaghe beating a faded legend.

Short Version:
Mayweather retired on top at 31 by default he needs more fights to validate his legacy
Calzaghe retired on top beating a faded RJJ a lot of people give him **** but realistically who else is there for him to fight? Dawson perhaps but that would just be one more fight who else is out there?

[javelin_fangs]

Ok, cool see that's what I wanted to debate. If Mayweather were to fight five more times only against HOFers and/or titlists at much higher weight classes that'd be cool. I wouldn't have a problem with that at all, because that's him trying to tie a lot of lose ends and also doing something that you just don't see fighters do. And I agree with you that Floyd just retired too early. He seems bored and jaded with the boxing game. I can't hate him for that, but it hurts his legacy either way.

[BattlingNelson]

49-0 is not the record. There was already a guy named Brian Nielsen of Denmark who some people may have remembered who got KO'ed by a 34-year old Mike Tyson. He was 49-0 once.

Nielsens attempt at breaking Marcianos record is covered here:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230983

[KnockoutTheFat]

Nielsens attempt at breaking Marcianos record is covered here:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=230983

I remember that fight in the 10th round I was like WTF is happening? I'm like looking at this I'm thinking he's about to die. Because I dunno how he could lose to a clubfighter in ****y Ryan

[javelin_fangs]

As for Calzaghe, there are plenty of fights that could get him to 50. He only needs four more. First and foremost, there's the Hopkins rematch. People do want to see that. There's Dawson and Johnson both good fights at this point. There's Clinton Woods and Carl Froch, fights people in the UK would be interested in and of course he could fight a rebounded Pavlik 18-24 months down the line possibly for #50.

He could get to 50 while fighting good fighters who fans would like to see him against. Not every single fight would be a megafight, but they'd all be interesting fights and could be against very good fighters and the chase for 50 would have built anticipation for each fight. With four wins to go the anticipation would have built and possibly grown palpable. Calzaghe just didn't want to do it and while I can't hate him for it; I am disappointed that he didn't even give it a try.

[KnockoutTheFat]

As for Calzaghe, there are plenty of fights that could get him to 50. He only needs four more. First and foremost, there's the Hopkins rematch. People do want to see that. There's Dawson and Johnson both good fights at this point. There's Clinton Woods and Carl Froch, fights people in the UK would be interested in and of course he could fight a rebounded Pavlik 18-24 months down the line possibly for #50.

He could get to 50 while fighting good fighters who fans would like to see him against. Not every single fight would be a megafight, but they'd all be interesting fights and could be against very good fighters and the chase for 50 would have built anticipation for each fight. With four wins to go the anticipation would have built and possibly grown palpable. Calzaghe just didn't want to do it and while I can't hate him for it; I am disappointed that he didn't even give it a try.

Yeah, the 50-0 can benefit Calzaghe a lot but I don't see the quality of opposition for him being that great. I dunno if you really wanna see the B-Hop fight again, personally I'd rather commit suicide; it was so bad. And even if he won that fight convincingly Hopkins has an excuse of using his age. Dawson would be great I have no objection to that match. And after that I just don't see that good realistic competition. Froch would probably get absolutely shattered, horrible style match-up for him, the only way this could be even competitive is if Calzaghe had to move back down to 168 which he isn't doing. Pavlik needs more big wins and even if he beat him Hopkins already made the blueprint and you could say he's undersized. That's what I think about Calzaghe.

[javelin_fangs]

I'm sorry man. I'm just not big on excuses. I do want to see Calzaghe-Hopkins II. I do think Woods, Froch and even Taylor or Pavlik would be interesting fights. Johnson is a solid fighter. It's 50-0 we're talking about and these are world class fighters. I just think any equivocation about what fights you'd actually like to see at that point are just excuses...sorry, but that's the way I feel about it.

[KnockoutTheFat]

I'm sorry man. I'm just not big on excuses. I do want to see Calzaghe-Hopkins II. I do think Woods, Froch and even Taylor or Pavlik would be interesting fights. Johnson is a solid fighter. It's 50-0 we're talking about and these are world class fighters. I just think any equivocation about what fights you'd actually like to see at that point are just excuses...sorry, but that's the way I feel about it.

Very well. I would like to see Calzaghe fight Dawson though because I do think he's better than he was in the Johnson fight and better than everybody else we've listed previously. Ideally I'd want him to fight natural LHW's though, I don't want people to move up to fight him. That's just my take on it.