Joe Calzaghe Felt Chad Dawson Wasn't Ready Yet

[ALT=_=Assassin]

People hating again, but not when Hopkins makes an excuse for not fighting Chad

People need to put their careers into perspective before asking one of the fighters to continue on fighting. Hopkins supposedly ended his career with a win over the 3-1 favorite in Pavlik. A prime P4P fighter and at the time middleweight champion. Yes, I know the fight was at a catch weight.....

Calzaghe on the other hand left the sport with a split decision win over Bernard{Very Good Win} and then a faded Roy Jones. The same Roy, Joe called shot in his Auto Biography. A win over Tito and Prince Aladdin didn't change that. People have a hard time giving Bernard credit over his Trinidad victory when he was a P4P prime belt holder, who actually outweighed Bhop for the fight, never mind the inactive shot version Roy fought. They both wanted the fight as it was made. Some fans claim it was money that created the bout but the truth is, it didn't generate that much buzz or monetary gain for either fighter.

Here are some interesting quotes from posters about Bernards retirement....

This is from a Joe fan who is happy about Calzaghe's retirement...

Hopkins vs Dawson has to happen. We saw what Johnson did to Dawson, imagine what Hopkins will do to him.

He gains a lot more for his legacy. Chad is the no. 1 guy at LHW, WBC champ and it's actually someone natural at the weight instead of Bernard's usual choice of smaller fighters coming up in weight to face him.

He doesn't sound to pleased with Bernards departure.

lmao...funny how nobody mentions the fact that taylor was supposed to be too green for hopkins, yet hopkins lost to him 2x.

jones, calzaghe, taylor. funny how hopkins lost to all of these fighters who are his size more or less and equally talented.

the fact of the matter is, hopkins isn't in the mix because he has yet to find a smaller, lesser skilled, big name opponent to beat up and make millions off.

when is the last time hopkins, despite being a natural lightheavy, fought a natural lightheavy who had some real talent besides the part-time movie actor tarver. this cat is a natural lightheavy making catchweight fights with middleweights and gets major props like he's soundly dominating cruisers or heavys. i say he should fight a dawson just to prove he can beat somebody his size with some talent besides the part-time movie actor tarver.

when people say theyll miss him do they mea nhim as a person or the boxer coz i sure wont miss the man himself.

These all came from the same thread, there were alot more anti Hopkins posts then this.

[Dave Rado]

There's a difference between ducking someone and daring to be great. Calzaghe may not have done the former but he definitely didn't try the latter. It's a shame that we even have to mention faded champs like Eubank and Woodhall and Charles Brewer (when it was WAY too late) as his top opposition.

Eubank was his mandatory for a vacant title which Steve Collins had vacated, and Collins admitted he retired then because he thought he'd lose. Eubank was slightly faded but not very far from his peak - he had some good fights after that - and Calzaghe dominated him like no-one else ever did. I don't think Calzaghe could realistically have got the Woodhall and Brewer fights much earlier than he did? Brewer was 33 when they fought, 2 years younger than Calzaghe was when he retired; and Woodhall was 32. Byron Mitchell was 30.

He tried to get fights with Jones and Hopkins at their peaks, and took part in serious negotiations with Showtime, who made both fighters serious offers; I don't know what more he could have done to get those fights. He tried to get Ottke to fight him, but Ottke made it clear he wasn't interested.

He was unfortunate that for most of his reign his division was weak, but can't be blamed for that.

I'm not sure that he could have done that much more.

No-one blames Mike McCallum for not being able to get the biggest fights. Why blame Calzaghe?

I know you think he should have fought Dawson at the end, and I'd have liked him to, but I understand why he didn't, and it wasn't because he thought he'd lose. But apart from that non-fight, I don't see what else he could have done, really.

[Roger Mellie]

If Dawson really makes a statement this year,I reckon he might be tempted to do a u-turn,but who is out there for him to do that?

[IMDAZED]

Dave - You're twisting quite a bit:

Eubank was his mandatory for a vacant title which Steve Collins had vacated, and Collins admitted he retired then because he thought he'd lose. Eubank was slightly faded but not very far from his peak - he had some good fights after that - and Calzaghe dominated him like no-one else ever did. I don't think Calzaghe could realistically have got the Woodhall and Brewer fights much earlier than he did? Brewer was 33 when they fought, 2 years younger than Calzaghe was when he retired; and Woodhall was 32.

Eubank had only weeks to prepare for that bout and was struggling to make weight. And he had only two fights after Calzaghe..at cruiser. Then retired. He wasn't shot but well past his prime and shouldn't have been fighting at that weight. Reminds me of Jose Louis Castillo. As for Richie Woodhall...I'm not even sure why he'd be included among Calzaghe's best wins—that shows a lack of depth in his resume. You do realize this was a guy stopped by Keith Holmes, right? You know Keith, the guy Bernard Hopkins brought the b*tch out of over 12 brutal rounds? And that was before Markus Beyer (Markus Beyer??!?!?!) got his hands on him. Not to mention he was DONE by the time he fought Calzaghe...and wasn't even that good to begin with. Brewer is a good win IMO but even he had just recently been KO’ed in three by Antwun Echols. You know, another guy Bernard beat the crap out of.

He tried to get fights with Jones and Hopkins at their peaks, and took part in serious negotiations with Showtime, who made both fighters serious offers; I don't know what more he could have done to get those fights. He tried to get Ottke to fight him, but Ottke made it clear he wasn't interested.

In the case of Jones, that’s completely 100% untrue. First of all, why would Showtime negotiate with an exclusive HBO fighter? How could they negotiate with him? He was the network posterboy for God’s sake! And while Calzaghe made several overtures to fighting him, he also made quite a few where he blatantly declared he didn’t want to. I disagree.

Furthermore, if you think Bernard Hopkins was ducking Joe Calzaghe, think again. Why would you disbelieve Hopkins who went through ALL of those negotiations in 2002 and pulled out only because he felt HIS promoter was getting too big a share? Is that worse than Calzaghe pulling out of two fights with Glen Johnson and avoiding a third? This wasn’t something new, Hopkins barely got any fights done while he was under contract with King. And the only reason he broke down and signed with him was so they wouldn’t freeze him out of the middleweight tourney, featuring three other fighters controlled by King. At 36, he knew he had few chances. But they never got along – King kept Hopkins away from Joppy and Holmes for years and was going to bypass Hopkins and head straight to Roy Jones with his cash cow Felix Trinidad. These are facts. So Hopkins signed a slave deal to get in the tourney and shocked everyone. But he and King never saw eye to eye. Notice how many big fights he’s been in ever since he and DLH made friends? I credit Calzaghe for trying to make a fight with Bernard but Jones never.

He was unfortunate that for most of his reign his division was weak, but can't be blamed for that.

You’re right he can’t be blamed, he did his part. But ultimately it is what it is; he dominated a bare division.

I'm not sure that he could have done that much more.

A lot but who knows? Maybe it was Warren’s fault.

No-one blames Mike McCallum for not being able to get the biggest fights. Why blame Calzaghe?

In McCallum’s case there is no revisionist history. As shown in the previous Jones, Hopkins examples that seems to be what you’re trying to do here with Calzaghe who, at the time, was a little known champ holding a belt that got almost zero respect then. Am I lying?

[WESS]

During a recent interview, Joe Calzaghe gave his reason for walking away from the sport and announcing his retirement - before taking a fight with IBF light heavyweight champion Chad Dawson, who many saw as the number-one contender to Calzaghe's throne. He felt Dawson was not yet a big enough star to make the fight. The money wasn't there for a fight with Dawson, and Calzaghe wasn't willing to wait around for the money to develop. He wanted to go out on top without a loss on his record. [details]

Because everyone knew Peter Manfredo was ready.........

[Allucard]

The Manfredo fight wasn't his last fight or even close - he wasn't ready to retire then. That fight was just to give him some more US exposure, because of the Contender's popularity. When it comes to the point you're ready to retire, then it needs something really special to keep you going for one more fight. Of course he wouldn't have fought a Manfredo in his farewell fight. As for Jones, he'd wanted to fight Jones for years and finally got the opportunity. Earlier would have been better but he didn't have the opportunity earlier (see my sig). It was no worse than Lewis fighting a shot Tyson for very similar reasons. Plus not only he but a lot of boxing writers thought after the Jones-Trinidad fight that Jones had something left in the tank after all, not because he won, but because he looked good in winning.

I think that was the pretext for it. Jones was an easier fight to go out on. I think allot of the American fans feel Joe went in, stole the golden eggs chicken and left. He was never in contention, when he got the chance he grabbed it and ran away with it know what i mean? He never stood at the top, he just reached it and was gone before many people could say "Who's this guy?". Very smart for him, he probably left the sport rich and with his health and that's nice to see (the health part) but in my mind he was a LHW paper champion at best. He gets some of my creds for the SWM run but that's if i don't look at who's in his record. Mandatories? Come on...

[Dave Rado]

Dave - You're twisting quite a bit:



Eubank had only weeks to prepare for that bout and was struggling to make weight. And he had only two fights after Calzaghe..at cruiser. Then retired. He wasn't shot but well past his prime and shouldn't have been fighting at that weight. Reminds me of Jose Louis Castillo. As for Richie Woodhall...I'm not even sure why he'd be included among Calzaghe's best wins—that shows a lack of depth in his resume. You do realize this was a guy stopped by Keith Holmes, right? You know Keith, the guy Bernard Hopkins brought the b*tch out of over 12 brutal rounds? And that was before Markus Beyer (Markus Beyer??!?!?!) got his hands on him. Not to mention he was DONE by the time he fought Calzaghe...and wasn't even that good to begin with. Brewer is a good win IMO but even he had just recently been KO’ed in three by Antwun Echols. You know, another guy Bernard beat the crap out of.


In the case of Jones, that’s completely 100% untrue. First of all, why would Showtime negotiate with an exclusive HBO fighter? How could they negotiate with him? He was the network posterboy for God’s sake! And while Calzaghe made several overtures to fighting him, he also made quite a few where he blatantly declared he didn’t want to. I disagree.

Furthermore, if you think Bernard Hopkins was ducking Joe Calzaghe, think again. Why would you disbelieve Hopkins who went through ALL of those negotiations in 2002 and pulled out only because he felt HIS promoter was getting too big a share? Is that worse than Calzaghe pulling out of two fights with Glen Johnson and avoiding a third? This wasn’t something new, Hopkins barely got any fights done while he was under contract with King. And the only reason he broke down and signed with him was so they wouldn’t freeze him out of the middleweight tourney, featuring three other fighters controlled by King. At 36, he knew he had few chances. But they never got along – King kept Hopkins away from Joppy and Holmes for years and was going to bypass Hopkins and head straight to Roy Jones with his cash cow Felix Trinidad. These are facts. So Hopkins signed a slave deal to get in the tourney and shocked everyone. But he and King never saw eye to eye. Notice how many big fights he’s been in ever since he and DLH made friends? I credit Calzaghe for trying to make a fight with Bernard but Jones never.

You’re right he can’t be blamed, he did his part. But ultimately it is what it is; he dominated a bare division.


A lot but who knows? Maybe it was Warren’s fault.


In McCallum’s case there is no revisionist history. As shown in the previous Jones, Hopkins examples that seems to be what you’re trying to do here with Calzaghe who, at the time, was a little known champ holding a belt that got almost zero respect then. Am I lying?

I accept that Woodhall wasn't a huge win but he wasn't a bum either, IMO, and nor were the others I listed. I agree they were faded but not shot. But they were the best fights he could get.

I accept that your story about Hopkins may be true but I haven't seen independent corroboration of it - and why did he suddenly double his purse demand after the contract had already been drawn up? I'm interested in this angle about King, it's new to me.

Re. Jones, I go back to the report from 2001 which said:

Jones was offered $5m (£3.5m) to fight Calzaghe by the US television company Showtime earlier this year, but has since renewed his contract with Showtime's rivals HBO, making the fight unlikely in the foreseeable future

And HBO weren't interested in Calzaghe back then. As you say, maybe that was Warren's fault.

I agree there were times in his early career when he could and should have been more ambitious than he was, although he was a lot more ambitious than many of his critics pretend. But as you say, it is what it is. I guess we can agree with each other that it's a shame he didn't have more defining fights, and that with a different personality he might have got them.

[IMDAZED]

I accept that Woodhall wasn't a huge win but he wasn't a bum either, IMO, and nor were the others I listed. I agree they were faded but not shot. But they were the best fights he could get.

Dave, if you think those faded fighters were the best Calzaghe could get than you're quite the apologist. But fine, let's say they were the best he could get. Certainly doesn't help his legacy.

I accept that your story about Hopkins may be true but I haven't seen independent corroboration of it - and why did he suddenly double his purse demand after the contract had already been drawn up? I'm interested in this angle about King, it's new to me.

He upped his demands because King was getting too large a share. Simple. Bernard Hopkins spent much of his middleweight career without a promoter and never enjoyed a good relationship with the ones he worked with. Don King controlled the other middleweight champs and wisely kept them away from Hopkins who he couldn't control and refused to sign with him. When Tito moved up from 154, he and King had outlined a plan where he'd fight William Joppy at 160 and Roy Jones at a catchweight. When Hopkins realized that - now 36 - he truly was going to be blackballed, he beat his chest, showing up and disrupting every press conference claiming there could be no true tourney without him. But he had to sign with King. That's what he did. These are facts, google away.

Re. Jones, I go back to the report from 2001 which said:

Jones was offered $5m (£3.5m) to fight Calzaghe by the US television company Showtime earlier this year, but has since renewed his contract with Showtime's rivals HBO, making the fight unlikely in the foreseeable future

Some perspective is required here. Roy Jones was never going anywhere, certainly not for less money to fight a guy who people back then didn't even think was that good. This wasn't a case of Jones ducking a risk who offered less money, this was a case of a fighter who arguably wasn't even the best in his division. Jones was always accused of ducking many fighters during his prime, Calzaghe was never one of them. If Joe wanted to fight Jones he would've moved up to 175, fought a contender or two and made his name...like everyone else does. But that would be daring to be great.

And HBO weren't interested in Calzaghe back then. As you say, maybe that was Warren's fault.

Hell, Showtime wasn't interested in Calzaghe. Hell, the UK wasn't even interested in him.

I agree there were times in his early career when he could and should have been more ambitious than he was, although he was a lot more ambitious than many of his critics pretend. But as you say, it is what it is. I guess we can agree with each other that it's a shame he didn't have more defining fights, and that with a different personality he might have got them.

It is a shame but it is what it is. Calzaghe has earned his hall of Fame credentials but when stacked up against his ATG peers, he ultimately falls short because of that.

[Dave Rado]

I think that was the pretext for it. Jones was an easier fight to go out on. I think allot of the American fans feel Joe went in, stole the golden eggs chicken and left. He was never in contention, when he got the chance he grabbed it and ran away with it know what i mean? He never stood at the top, he just reached it and was gone before many people could say "Who's this guy?". Very smart for him, he probably left the sport rich and with his health and that's nice to see (the health part) but in my mind he was a LHW paper champion at best. He gets some of my creds for the SWM run but that's if i don't look at who's in his record. Mandatories? Come on...

I agree that he wasn't really a LHW champion in more than name, he took those last two fights because of who he was fighting, not because of the belts they held. As such I think it's unfair to resent him for not defending the title afterwards. I disagree with your opinion regarding his motives, though; I see it as very similar to Lewis fighting a shot Tyson when he did; that motive seems to me much more plausible, given what I think I know about his personality. And I think he genuinely thought Pavlik would have been an easy fight, and that fighting Pavlik genuinely excited him less than fighting Jones. Like most people here I wish he'd fought Dawson, but again, the motives he claims for not doing so seem very plausible to me.

[Testdead]

Would liked him to beat up Dawson but looked at Pavlik and Lacy the other two young undefeated fighters. Jow beats him up he gets zero credit for it as Dawson was over-rated and had already lost to Johnson they`ll say.