What's so wrong w/ Joe staying at 168 for the majority of his career?

[Pullcounter]

calz is good but not great. he needs to beat hopkins convincingly in a rematch and beat dawson convincingly.

[S A M U R A I]

calz is good but not great. he needs to beat hopkins convincingly in a rematch and beat dawson convincingly.

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[Benny Leonard]

Calzaghe won all 4 belts and the Ring belt at SMW.

After doing this he moved up to LHW and won the Ring belt.

I don't care how weak your division is, to accomplish this UNDEFEATED is incredible.

Name me one other modern day fighter who has achieved this?

Jones Jr.: Won the Middle weight title, moved up to SMW, WOn, moved up to 175, WON...then moved up to HW, Won a title.

True, he had one loss in doing so, but come on, he was undefeated. That DQ loss doesn't count.


And then of course you have Floyd Mayweather Jr.

[hookoutofhell]

Okay whatever. Once again this was about Calzaghe not Bernard. Historically Middle has been much better than Super Middle. Period. So again fighting in that division will always give you more perceived value.

let's take a look at a few of these:

Mitchell: Basically a KO ready to happen when Joe fought him. You can check out ring issues at the time, everyone was predicting that he'd lose his title within the year. Shockingly he was KOed by Joe.

Tito: Big knock on him was that he wasn't a true welterweight and had no power coming up. Tito blasted out William Joppy who wasn't the best fighter ever but a top flight middle and had never been destroyed the way tito took him out. Hopkins destroyed him. I've seen Joe fans say that's cause Hopkins was bigger. If you watch the fight, Hopkins fights from the outside and at no point does his size become a factor. At all.

You can compare Tito to Lacy in that both were undefeated wrecking machine challengers. Obviously the knock on lacy is that he always ****** and fought no one coming up but he was a true supermiddle so you have to give credit to that. In the end, Tito is a better win. Tito is a HOF Jeff Lacy is not. And yes Tito would have been good at middle before HOpkins destroyed his will.

Jackson was garbage at middle. This was just a defense for Hopkins. Exciting fighter but nothing else.

Sheika is comparable to jackson. good durable fighter who never had a big win. Ever. Always came up short.

Roy Jones Jr.- Obviously fighting him at any point in your career is better than anything Joe faced, win or lose.

Again we can do this kind of stuff all day. Who cares?

Doesn't change the emptiness of SMW other than Joe and Roy/Toney's pit stops there.

historically i will admit openly that middle has been a more attractive and glamourous weight class, it has more history and more prestige but i think you're conveniently overlooking the fact that over the last 20 years it has been dire. does that still mean that it should be held in the same esteem that it was at the time of hagler, hearns and SRL - no of course not.

fighters like hopkins, taylor and pavlik have all held belts there, all of them have also been among the best MW division has to offer for the last 20 years. now are pavlik and taylor really all that, in fact p4p if you were to make a top 20 over the last 20 years would they crack it? i dont think so.

you're argument that historically MW has been more glamourous and has more hhistory doesn't hold up. lets take the big boys for instance - are vlad's acheivements really that much better than winky's? vlad fights in a relatively weak division without much competition yet his acheivements have more weight to them because he fights in a more established and respected weight class. winky may have arguably faced and beaten the better competition p4p but according to your argument that doesn't mean anything because hes not in a historically famous divsion therefore his acheivements aren't as valid.
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[Benny Leonard]

Can anybody name me another fighter who won all 5 belts at one weight then stepped up and won the ring belt at a higher weight, all whilst remaining undefeated?

Come on, really?

It doesn't matter how many belts there are in one division.

Back in the day they had one, now, everybody ranked in the top 10 gets a belt.

He gets credit for being the "MAN" at 168 and holding it down for a long time...but let's not play it up with how many ABC titles he won in one division.

And beating a 43 year old fighter who won against a weight drained Tarver, doesn't equal to should have moved up a while back and fought Roy in his prime.

And yes, I know when Roy fought at HW he fought the weakest of title holders, Ruiz...instead of Lewis...but Ruiz is still a tougher fight than Hopkins.

[hookoutofhell]

Jones Jr.: Won the Middle weight title, moved up to SMW, WOn, moved up to 175, WON...then moved up to HW, Won a title.

True, he had one loss in doing so, but come on, he was undefeated. That DQ loss doesn't count.


And then of course you have Floyd Mayweather Jr.

sugar shane anyone? i know that he didn't establish himself s well as he should have at WW but he did a damn good job and whipped DLH's ass as well while he was at it.
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[goldenglove2]

Jesus christ. Did I mention Hopkins?

Man I'm so tired of Joe's fans. Stick to the subject. Stop comparing him to Hopkins.

Overall Hopkins career was better. His competition at middle was okay, at least he fought Roy Jones even if he lost. Also historically Middle has not been a ****ty division. Just saying.

Moron..Hopkins is part of the SUBjECT read the OPENING POST!!!!

Im not a JOE fan....

[Benny Leonard]

sugar shane anyone? i know that he didn't establish himself s well as he should have at WW but he did a damn good job and whipped DLH's ass as well while he was at it.

yeah, loved Shane. I was just giving some examples.

[x-PeROxiDE-x]

Jones Jr.: Won the Middle weight title, moved up to SMW, WOn, moved up to 175, WON...then moved up to HW, Won a title.

True, he had one loss in doing so, but come on, he was undefeated. That DQ loss doesn't count.


And then of course you have Floyd Mayweather Jr.

OK, so Joe is in the same club as RJJ and FMJ.

So why does he get all this disrespect?

Even people who dislike RJJ and FMJ recognise their supreme skillset, so why should Joe be any different?

[Dirk Diggler UK]

would you say Hopkins competition at 160 was deeper ?

It was certainly smaller.

They had to manufacture Middleweights for him.

And of course, he wanted nothing to do with Joe and the "weak" 168lb division