Why is Jack Johnson a top ten heavyweight?

[joseph5620]

Can we really call Jack Johnson a scumbag for what he did? He did what the majority of us would do in his situation in my opinion.

Joe Louis was an exceptional man.

The difference is that Jack Johnson lived the rest of his life wealthy while Louis was screwed over by the government. What's the moral of that story?

Excellent point.

[joseph5620]

[QUOTE=LondonRingRules;4125360]** Just scrolled thru on a lark, not meaning to respond.

While I rate Johnson, I don't rate him in top 10. Take away the Jeffries win, and you have very little which is a testament to what Jeffries was, the Tyson of his day where the Johnson victory secured the legend, and his finances which oddly enough leads to his downfall.

Jeffries was a crude novice fighter against Peter friggin' Jackson how ever old and infirm he was. Damned sight more impressive than young Clay against 50 yr old Archie Moore, or even Liston against Patterson.


For your sake I hope you're joking about that. Jackson was old, sick and had not had a fight in six years before he fought Jeffries.Peter Jackson died only 4 years after that fight. Jeffries management knew exactly how that fight would turn as any other sane person would. To even suggest that it was more impressive than Liston beating Patterson is some of the worst ignorance I've seen on this board. I also see how you disregarded all of the top black fighters Johnson beat as if only the Jeffries fight is why people think Johnson was great.

[JAB5239]

It's a different era though. Some of the fights Peter Jackson had weren't really the type of boxing contests we have today, they were brutal wars.

Jackson's fight against Gentleman Jim Corbett lasted 61 rounds, the fight was stopped when neither man was able to continue.

It should also be mentioned the advances in medical science, allowing fighters to heal properly and more quickly today.

How often fighters fought then, as compared to now. Some guys fought every two weeks to a month. That would be insanity by todays standards.

And finaly, video technology and the internet. Back in the old days a fighter had to rely on newspaper reports, which were not always described accurately, to learn about his oppononent.

[TheGreatA]

not exactly the most impressive guy Ive ever seen. the boxing IBHOF has some really weird people in it sometimes anyway. like whats Barry McGuinen doing in there? and Jack Sharkey? and Jess Willard? really? guess its not such a big deal to be in the HOF...

McVea's wins over Langford, Harry Wills and Joe Jeannette put him there.

He is listed in the 'old timer' section which includes many lesser known boxers whom the majority has probably never heard about.

http://www.ibhof.com/mcvey.htm

[Poet682006]

I'm still in my twenties.

Of course, there are always exceptions

Poet

[Southpaw16BF]

ok, lets put it this way...Langford is a great fighter. overall, he was probebly better than McVea and Jeanette. hes pretty much Jack Johnson's best win.
Im assuming Ali, Louis, Lennox, Holmes, Marciano, Liston, Holyfield, Ez Charles, Foreman, and Frazier are above Johnson. some people would argue against Holyfield and Charles.
yet Holyfield has beaten Tyson and Bowe. arent they better heavyweights than Langford?
Charles beat a fading Joe Louis and Walcott. arent they better heavyweights than Langford?
and thats a legitimate argument, although I wouldnt have called Charles 'washed up', he was on his way out. still pretty talented, but hed seen better days.

Yes but Johnson just cound't of had a normal career etc Holyfield, Frazier, he had to come throguh so much to get were he did, and still achieving what he did when everyone was against him, who knows if there was no racism around at that time he might of been even better. But hey you can have your veiw.

[JAB5239]

He was trying to say Jeffries ducked all black fighters, even though with only 22 fights in his whole career, he still managed to fight two very good ones. That dude can rag on Jackson all he wants, but he was still a tough challenge for a guy with 7 fights.

As far as the thread goes, you look how accepted blacks were in boxing after Joe Louis. Johson could have done that if he wanted, but he was too much of a greedy scumbag.

You're calling Johnson a greedy scumbag and blaming him for setting blacks back, yet it wasn't Johnson who brought about racist behavior during that period, but much of white America. Johnson was his own person who did what he thought was right. He was told he couldn't do something because of the color of his skin, he said **** you and did it anyway. and if he hadn't he may have been relegated to a footnote in boxing history. Just another forgotten ni**er if you will pardon my language. The man broke down barriers. Granted, colored fighters may have had to take a backwards step after him, but because of him, his defiance, his fortitude, they would be able to take two steps forward down the road.

[Steak]

Yes but Johnson just cound't of had a normal career etc Holyfield, Frazier, he had to come throguh so much to get were he did, and still achieving what he did when everyone was against him, who knows if there was no racism around at that time he might of been even better. But hey you can have your veiw.

I dunno, just because he had difficulties in life doesnt really mean we should give him accomplishment credits if you ask me. I know it sounds kind of cruel, but honestly its kind of like saying that if Tyson didnt have such a messed up life, he would have been the best heavyweight of all time...which you just cant do. when it gets down to it, I only rate fighters for what they did do, not what they could have done under different circumstances.

I think overall Ive exhausted a lot of the things to talk about and it would just go into circles from here, so thanks for the information from everyone whos givin me it. I enjoyed the discussion. unless someone would still like to keep it going, of course. which would be fun.

overall, I dont really think its worthwhile sometimes to try and rate some guys from that long ago. theres little to no footage of them, boxing records are apparently too misleading to judge them by, newspapers have unreliable reports, and all we really have to go by is someone elses opinion.
its just a big fat question mark that no one can answer for sure.

I will admit that I was surprised at the fact that guys like Willard and Sharkey were in the IBHOF tho.

[ferocity]

seriously, makes no sense. Ive seen people put him in the top 10 best heavyweights list, but for what? the guy was fighting guys that weighed 160 naturally, which would pretty much be the equivilant of Welterweights nowadays. Johnson fought maybe 2 or 3 guys that weighed 200lbs+ in his title defences, one of them being a loss.

and the guys style? it was basically a better version of John Ruiz, and Im not joking at all. I know the fights were longer and everything, but mostly he did that sort of thing because he 220lbs and he could just lean on guys that weighed about 50 or 60 pounds less than him. I dont mean to put him down, but if someone like Tyson would have knocked out Roy Jones no one wouldve given him any credit, despite the fact that Jones is one of the greatest p4p fighters and middleweight/light heavyweights of all time...If you wouldnt give Tyson credit for that, why would you give credit to Johnson for knocking out lesser middleweights?

I dont mean to put him down so badly, but I have a hard time believing that there arent 10 heavyweights that have done more than Jack Johnson has.
so why would someone ever rate Jack Johnson in the top 10 best heavies?

Wow, im surprised you said this. Jack Johns did not fight like John Ruiz. Jack Johnson was a great fighter that even Muhammed Ali said was so great and imulated his style a bit.

Jack Johson besides being the best Heavyweight was the first black heavyweight Champion. Not only that he keep beating everybody up. There was no match for him cause he was that much better then everybody else. In Jack Johnsons era is where the phrase "The Great White Hope" got phrased. Not only phrased but they were literly looking for whites to beat up Johnson. From middleweight to retired greats to come back and beat Jack Johnson.

Jack Johnson was ahead of his type the way he, as a heavyweighe could box around the ring. How he could have such fast hands and great power. He is credited for using a lot of feints and for poplorizing feints in boxing -maybe go as far as too say he did it first, or not better then those before him.


Its not Johnsons fault that he fought middleweight and lightheavy weight or that he out weighed them by 20 pounds. Its just that J.Johnson was that good. We've had other big heavyweights contenders and champion that have been good and some that have been bad. Plain and simple Jack Johnson was a great fighter and imo, he, not Jackie Robinson first crossed the white color barrier.

J.Johnson probably at the time was the only black man that could get away with going out with white girls.....in public.


And J.Jonson beat some of the best black heavyweight around that weren't given a shot as J.Johnson was to be heavyweight Champion. And because of how Johnson was so boostfull, loud, and flountly, is why Joe Louis was so humble.


I don't think you've done your homework on Jack Johnson.

[Steak]

Wow, im surprised you said this. Jack Johns did not fight like John Ruiz. Jack Johnson was a great fighter that even Muhammed Ali said was so great and imulated his style a bit.

Jack Johson besides being the best Heavyweight was the first black heavyweight Champion. Not only that he keep beating everybody up. There was no match for him cause he was that much better then everybody else. In Jack Johnsons era is where the phrase "The Great White Hope" got phrased. Not only phrased but they were literly looking for whites to beat up Johnson. From middleweight to retired greats to come back and beat Jack Johnson.

Jack Johnson was ahead of his type the way he, as a heavyweighe could box around the ring. How he could have such fast hands and great power. He is credited for using a lot of feints and for poplorizing feints in boxing -maybe go as far as too say he did it first, or not better then those before him.


Its not Johnsons fault that he fought middleweight and lightheavy weight or that he out weighed them by 20 pounds. Its just that J.Johnson was that good. We've had other big heavyweights contenders and champion that have been good and some that have been bad. Plain and simple Jack Johnson was a great fighter and imo, he, not Jackie Robinson first crossed the white color barrier.

J.Johnson probably at the time was the only black man that could get away with going out with white girls.....in public.


And J.Jonson beat some of the best black heavyweight around that weren't given a shot as J.Johnson was to be heavyweight Champion. And because of how Johnson was so boostfull, loud, and flountly, is why Joe Louis was so humble.


I don't think you've done your homework on Jack Johnson.

ok, again, yes Johnson did fight like Ruiz. he clinched a LOT. that was the style back then, I understand. but thats the way he was, and thats all there is to it. the point still stands.

and again, I dont care that he was the first black heavyweight champ. that doesnt mean anything to me. Ruiz was the first hispanic champ. that doesnt mean anything to me either.

and apparently he was not beating up everyone, since he got draws in two of his title defences, so I have a hard time believing he was really THAT dominant.

and again, Im going to name 10 heavyweights
-Ali
-Joe Louis
-Larry Holmes
-George Foreman
-Sonny Liston
-Rocky Marciano
-Ezzard Charles
-Evander Holyfield
-Lennox Lewis
-Joe Frazier

if Johnson deserves to be in the top ten, he needs to be better than one of them. compare their records, and then we can actually discuss something. Johnson was not a bad fighter at all. dont get me mixed up. All Im saying is top ten. thats it. in fact, hes just outside the top ten. but not in it.