Why is Jack Johnson a top ten heavyweight?

[Scott9945]

I dont see how hes better than
-Ali
-Louis
-Holmes
-Foreman
-Marciano
-Liston
-Lewis
-Frazier
-Holyfield
-Charles
-or even Dempsey

Since there is nobody alive who saw Johnson fight, all you can do is rate him on his achievements. It's like comparing Ty Cobb to Ichiro Suzuki. On what he accomplished as a heavyweight champion, he stands up pretty well to many on that list. But this is why I almost never make all time lists. When you are seperating people by up to 100 years, it is speculation at best.

[warp1432]

Come up with specific details to explain how far Dempsey or Jeffries crude style would get them against fighters from the last 40 years or so. Or Johnson's holding. Also, the writers who saw these fighters fight have been dead for years now. Otherwise you look ignorant not to mention lying about being 15.

Dempsey seemed pretty fast for a heavyweight when destroying Jess Willard in 1 round. You could say "Well he throws to wide", but Sam Peter is the #2 heavyweight in the world. Granted Sam Peter weighs 250 pounds compared to Jack Dempsey's 190, Dempsey rushes in with his hands down yes and he does have flaws, but to say he wouldn't be competitive is insulting. Vitali Klitchsko still makes amateur mistakes and looks sloppy. What would people think if people were shown 8 minutes of vitali and lewis in crappy 1920's flim?

Also, I didn't really mean Dempsey in general. But like Joe Gans, Benny Leonard, Charley Burley, Sugar Ray Robinson would be competitive in this era.

[Left Hook Tua]

it's tough to compare fighters of eras so far apart.

my rule is i don't compare anyone after liston with anyone before liston head to head.

it's just not fair to the older guys who are really small weight wise.

if you look at dempsey he's about 6 ft. who's to say with modern nutrition and training facilities he wouldn't be say 220 lbs now?

best to compare the guys achievements and resumes.

i don't even want to think off the great dempsey or louis losing to huge , unskilled fighters like jameel mccline or lance whitaker......

[joseph5620]

Dempsey seemed pretty fast for a heavyweight when destroying Jess Willard in 1 round. You could say "Well he throws to wide", but Sam Peter is the #2 heavyweight in the world. Granted Sam Peter weighs 250 pounds compared to Jack Dempsey's 190, Dempsey rushes in with his hands down yes and he does have flaws, but to say he wouldn't be competitive is insulting. Vitali Klitchsko still makes amateur mistakes and looks sloppy. What would people think if people were shown 8 minutes of vitali and lewis in crappy 1920's flim?

What I meant was that I don't think Dempsey could beat Joe Louis,Marciano, Liston or Ali. Or many champions after that. Foreman would have slaughtered Dempsey. When you examine Dempsey's record, he never beat an all time great heavyweight or even a highly skilled one and he defended his title I believe 5 times in 7 years. He would have caught hell from Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore. I think he is one of the most overrated heavyweights of all time. When you mention him fighting Lewis or Klitschko that's almost comical. Dempsey would have 0 chance of beating either one..







Also, I didn't really mean Dempsey in general. But like Joe Gans, Benny Leonard, Charley Burley, Sugar Ray Robinson would be competitive in this era.

Those two are from a different era than Dempsey,Jeffries, or Jack Johnson. I have never seen Gans or Benny Leonard fight so I can't comment on them.

[TheGreatA]

i don't even want to think off the great dempsey or louis losing to huge , unskilled fighters like jameel mccline or lance whitaker......

McCline and Whitaker were a lot bigger but I don't really see them beating Louis or even Dempsey. The little heavyweights of the past usually handled the unskilled, slow big men rather easily.

I guess they would have a chance, based on size alone but as you said, I don't even want to think about it.


Joe Louis against the 6'5, 255 lb human punching bag Abe Simon.

What do you people think of Gene Tunney and Tommy Loughran? Both fought during the 1920's.

[Unstable89]

All I like to say is try to box when thousands are against chanting racist chant the media against beat the former champion and embarrass him in front of his supporters and also be ****ing a white women as well. Legendary

Jefferies said himself he won’t beat him in his prime and he knows himself pretty well I think

[warp1432]

Oh I thought you just meant the whole old black and white era in general.

I think Dempsey could beat Wlad and Vitali. Infighting back then was different and I think it could cause some people some problems from nowadays. They were so damn awkward and fighting in the clinch seemed very different.

Joe Gans is great though. He was fighting someone who I wasn't impressed with, but he showed some very impressive defensive techniques that I've never seen anymore. Benny Leonard had some very good ring movement. Gene Tunney was good too.

[Steak]

Honestly blackirish, I couldn't rate Charles, Dempsey, or Holyfield over Johnson in terms of what they did as heavyweight champion. But that's just my opinion and there is no right or wrong on this topic. It's all subjective. In terms of head to head match ups, I wouldn't even try to pick a winner because there are not any good tapes or videos that cleary give me an idea of that with Johnson.

Holyfield has wins over Tyson, Bowe, old Foreman, old Larry Holmes, Moorer, Mercer, and a host of other decent fighters...not to mention he still was a force in the division even into his 40s
Charles has a dominant win over a past prime Joe Louis, Walcott, Maxim and others
Dempsey is up for debate.

they may have had a few losses at heavyweight, but then again Johnson lost to Willard and had draws with guys like 12-11 Jim Johnson and 168lb Jack O'Brien, where a newspaper thought that O'Brien won. I really have no idea what actually happened in these fights, so I aint gonna comment on them. but if we're ignoring these fairly embarressing draws, we should also overlook the losses of Charles and Holyfield, many of which were avenged.

[TheGreatA]

Since there is nobody alive who saw Johnson fight, all you can do is rate him on his achievements. It's like comparing Ty Cobb to Ichiro Suzuki. On what he accomplished as a heavyweight champion, he stands up pretty well to many on that list. But this is why I almost never make all time lists. When you are seperating people by up to 100 years, it is speculation at best.

There could still be people alive who saw him fight since he retired from boxing in 1938 at 60 years of age.

I agree with you completely. I've tried to read a lot about the era but I still have trouble ranking the fighters accordingly.

The old films aren't enough and many newspaper reports of old fights are conflicting.

[Poet682006]

No vote = a 20 something poster
Yes vote = a 30 plus poster who no longer thinks the universe revolves around his generation.

Poet