is calzage an all time great if he beats rjj and retires undefeated???

[abadger]

Calzaghe is the dominant boxer of his era around his weightclass, will retire undefeated and has a record breaking run as SMW champion. He also has a unique boxing style based around reacting to what his opponent does, that hasn't really been seen before, although I'm sure the historians will correct me. He is also probably the best SMW the world has ever seen.

I'd say that all of this is enough to make Calzaghe an 'All Time Great', but that isn't the same thing as saying he is the best boxer ever, the best boxer ever around his weight class or even close to that. It does mean that he has achieved some things that haven't been achieved often or even at all by any other boxer in history, and if that isn't enough, I don't know what is.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Calzaghe is the dominant boxer of his era around his weightclass, will retire undefeated and has a record breaking run as SMW champion. He also has a unique boxing style based around reacting to what his opponent does, that hasn't really been seen before, although I'm sure the historians will correct me. He is also probably the best SMW the world has ever seen.

I'd say that all of this is enough to make Calzaghe an 'All Time Great', but that isn't the same thing as saying he is the best boxer ever, the best boxer ever around his weight class or even close to that. It does mean that he has achieved some things that haven't been achieved often or even at all by any other boxer in history, and if that isn't enough, I don't know what is.

Calzaghe is the greatest and more accomplished at super middleweight, but Jones was the best.

[IMDAZED]

Calzaghe is the dominant boxer of his era around his weightclass, will retire undefeated and has a record breaking run as SMW champion. He also has a unique boxing style based around reacting to what his opponent does, that hasn't really been seen before, although I'm sure the historians will correct me. He is also probably the best SMW the world has ever seen.

I'd say that all of this is enough to make Calzaghe an 'All Time Great', but that isn't the same thing as saying he is the best boxer ever, the best boxer ever around his weight class or even close to that. It does mean that he has achieved some things that haven't been achieved often or even at all by any other boxer in history, and if that isn't enough, I don't know what is.

Jones had Hopkins & Toney

Leonard had Hearns & Duran

Whitaker had Chavez & Nelson

And so forth and so forth.

Yet you think beating Mikkel Kessler and Jeff Lacy makes you an ATG.

And he's not the best SMW the world has "ever seen." We saw better, only he moved up and sought greater challenges. Add that to the list of things this all-time great refused to do.

[the_godslayer]

There is all the talk about the people Joe has not or did not fight and all the differing opinions as to who ducked whom etc etc etc, its a shame really because if he does get past RJJ and retires undefeated 2 weight world champ with 2 lineal titles that is still some accomplishment, we will NEVER know if those fighters ducked Joe or vice versa, only those concerned truly know the truth about that so all we can say with honesty is that Joe has so far beaten everybody put in front of him and has held is belt for over 10 years. Does that make him an ATG? im not sure to be honest. It certainly makes him one of the exceptional boxers of this era but of all time im not so sure.

[IMDAZED]

There is all the talk about the people Joe has not or did not fight and all the differing opinions as to who ducked whom etc etc etc, its a shame really because if he does get past RJJ and retires undefeated 2 weight world champ with 2 lineal titles that is still some accomplishment, we will NEVER know if those fighters ducked Joe or vice versa, only those concerned truly know the truth about that so all we can say with honesty is that Joe has so far beaten everybody put in front of him and has held is belt for over 10 years. Does that make him an ATG? im not sure to be honest. It certainly makes him one of the exceptional boxers of this era but of all time im not so sure.

It's not a question of who ducked whom. The fights didn't happen. And that taints his legacy. Certainly doesn't taint Jones' legacy - he can always fall back on Hopkins and Toney.

Add to that the fact that, in his prime, he never fought the second best fighter at 168 either - Sven Ottke. Was that Calzaghe or Ottke's fault? Either way, it taints his legacy.

[abadger]

Calzaghe is the greatest and more accomplished at super middleweight, but Jones was the best.

I agree with you. Jones was more talented, but he did not translate that talent into achievement in the way Calzaghe has in any single division.

[IMDAZED]

I agree with you. Jones was more talented, but he did not translate that talent into achievement in the way Calzaghe has in any single division.

How can you say that when he unified the light heavyweight titles almost immediately after he entered the division? And then defended all THREE belts 11 times?

[the_godslayer]

It's not a question of who ducked whom. The fights didn't happen. And that taints his legacy. Certainly doesn't taint Jones' legacy - he can always fall back on Hopkins and Toney.

Add to that the fact that, in his prime, he never fought the second best fighter at 168 either - Sven Ottke. Was that Calzaghe or Ottke's fault? Either way, it taints his legacy.

I agree, it does taint his legacy, thats why I say that IMO even if he beats RJJ he will be at best a modern day icon rather than an ATG my friend.

[abadger]

Jones had Hopkins & Toney

Leonard had Hearns & Duran

Whitaker had Chavez & Nelson

And so forth and so forth.

Yet you think beating Mikkel Kessler and Jeff Lacy makes you an ATG.

And he's not the best SMW the world has "ever seen." We saw better, only he moved up and sought greater challenges. Add that to the list of things this all-time great refused to do.

Please read my posts a little more carefully and try to pick up on some of the subtlety. I do not rate Calzaghe above many, many boxers, like Hagler, Leonard, Hearns etc, but do I rate him as one of the best of the current era, so it stands to reason that he also must be one of the best ever. He might be tenth best MW - LHW or he might be fiftieth, point is he is very good and dominated his own era, which is all you can do.

As for whether Jones is 'better', as I've posted before I believe he is more talented, sure, but he simply did not do at SMW what Calzaghe has done, nor did he beat as tough opposition at that weight. When Jones did face his best opposition at LHW, he lost, which is something Calzaghe has never done.

[abadger]

How can you say that when he unified the light heavyweight titles almost immediately after he entered the division? And then defended all THREE belts 11 times?

Its still not actually as good as what Calzaghe did at SMW though, is it?