Did Pacquiao surpass JCC Sr. in greatness?

[Reggie Miller]

My pinoy friends are getting very delusional, pacquiao beats a bum last night and they want him to be considered a greater fighter then JCC?

Chavez beat more top ranked fighters then Pacquiao has, pacquiao only beat 3 who are great and 1 had already beat him and was on the decline already, the other beat him twice and got robbed... the first barrera fight was a fluke and in the second he was already old, unmotivated, and just wanted his retirement check, adios papi.

.......

[Steak]

Well according to some people...Pacquiao's most significant wins may as well have come from bums because they were on their way out already and should not count.

well, thats partially true. Pacquiao should get credit for his wins over Morales and Barrera 2, but the truth is they werent prime. so he shouldnt get credit for wins over prime Morales and Barrera, but he should get plenty of credit for beating very talented fighters nonetheless.

[shadeyfizzle]

well, thats partially true. Pacquiao should get credit for his wins over Morales and Barrera 2, but the truth is they werent prime. so he shouldnt get credit for wins over prime Morales and Barrera, but he should get plenty of credit for beating very talented fighters nonetheless.

Barrera was ranked 2nd p4p in 03 when he got beat by a pacquiao who came up in weight to challenge for the belt. And Barrera was on the most prolific win streak of his career at the time. That was Barrera's prime. If it wasnt...then please tell me when was Barerra's prime because the Barerra that KO'd kevin kelley would not have lost to junior jones. And if he were so past prime then why did he go on another 4 year win streak immediately after Pacquiao beat him?

[Steak]

Barrera was ranked 2nd p4p in 03 when he got beat by a pacquiao who came up in weight to challenge for the belt. And Barrera was on the most prolific win streak of his career at the time. That was Barrera's prime. If it wasnt...then please tell me when was Barerra's prime because the Barerra that KO'd kevin kelley would not have lost to junior jones. And if he were so past prime then why did he go on another 4 year win streak immediately after Pacquiao beat him?

I actually thought Barrera was in his prime against Morales in their first fight. The Junior Jones fight was kind of a wakeup call, and he developed a defence. Ive even heard that the 2nd Junior Jones fight couldve gone to Barrera, and I think the Morales fight was a year or two after those fights...fighters can change a lot in that time. the Morales-Barrera fight was so brutal...I dont think either of them were in their primes past that fight.

besides, Barrera had a totally different style by the time he fought Pacquiao. Look at the difference between Barrera in the first Morales fight, and look at him in the 2nd. much, much different fighter.

regardless, the MAB win for Pacquiao was huge. MAB wasnt dead prime, but he was still pretty close. Pacquiao's first win over Barrera is probebly the most impressive win from any top fighter in the sport today. and that includes Mayweather.

[Johnny Rebel]

Get the **** outta here.

Wanker! The judges had the fight scored right.

[warp1432]

This thread might be the saddest thing in boxingscene.

From "Who did chavez beat" to "Whitaker lost the Chavez fight" Wow....

[shadeyfizzle]

I
regardless, the MAB win for Pacquiao was huge. MAB wasnt dead prime, but he was still pretty close. Pacquiao's first win over Barrera is probebly the most impressive win from any top fighter in the sport today. and that includes Mayweather.

Thank you. that was the point I was trying to get across. Thank you for concurring that. So that said...throw in victories with past prime morales, marquez, larios and barrera plus add prime ledwaba, solis, and diaz victories and would you not say this whole "pac is wayy overrated" business is a bit farfetched??

[BennyST]

Ring Magazine Ratings

End 1984 Jr Lightweights

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Roger Mayweather - Chavez Ko 2
3. Mario Azabache Martinez - Chavez Ko 8
4. Rafael Solis
5. Bobby Chacon
6. Edgar Castro
7. Kenny Baysmore
8. Pat Cowdell
9. Jean-Marc Renard
10. Kamel Bou-Ali

End 1985 Jr Lightweights

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Rocky Lockridge - Chavez W12
3. Roger Mayweather
4. Alfredo Layne
5. Mario Azabache Martinez
6. Rafael Solis
7. Kenny Baysmore
8. Johnny De La Rosa
9. Francisco Tomas Da Cruz
10. Barry Michael

End 1986 Jr Lightweights

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Barry Michael
3. Juan La Porte
4. Rocky Lockridge
5. Mario Azabache Martinez
6. Alfredo Layne
7. Mario Miranda
8. Dennis Cruz
9. Johnny De La Rosa
10. Kenny Baysmore

End 1987 Lightweights

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Vinny Pazienza
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Jose Luis Ramirez - Chavez W 11
5. Edwin Rosario - Chavez TKO 11
6. Meldrick Taylor
7. Greg Haugen
8. Primo Ramos
9. Rocky Lockridge
10. Amancio Castro

End 1988 Lightweights

Julio Cesar Chavez, Champion

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Jose Luis Ramirez
3. Greg Haugen
4. Edwin Rosario
5. Azumah Nelson
6. Amancio Castro
7. Tony Lopez
8. Anthony Jones
9. Rocky Lockridge
10. Brian Mitchell

End 1989 Jr Welterweight

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Meldrick Taylor - Chavez TKO 12
3. Juan Martin Coggi
4. Roger Mayweather - Chavez TKO 10
5. Livingstone Bramble
6. Loreto Garza
7. Hector Camacho
8. Frankie Randall
9. Sammy Fuentes - Chavez TKO 10
10. Jose Luis Ramirez

End 1989 Ring P4P list

1. Mike Tyson
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Michael Nunn
5. Antonio Esparragoza
6. Meldrick Taylor
7. Azumah Nelson
8. Raul Perez
9. Virgil Hill
10. Marlon Starling

End 1990 Jr Welterweight

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Loreto Garza
3. Roger Mayweather
4. Hector Camacho
5. Juan Martin Coggi
6. Charles Murray
7. John Meekins
8. Pat Barrett
9. John Duplessis - Chavez Ko 4
10. Angel Hernandez - Chavez Ko 5

End 1990 Ring P4P list

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Michael Nunn
4. Antonio Esparragoza
5. Meldrick Taylor
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Mike Tyson
8. Raul Perez
9. Myung-Woo Yuh
10. Khaosai Galaxy

End 1991 Jr Welterweight Ratings


1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Rafael Pineda
3. Edwin Rosario
4.Terrence Alli
5. Charles Murray
6. Hector Camacho
7. Greg Haugen
8. Roger Mayweather
9. Loreto Garza
10. Pat Barrett

End 1991 P4P ratings not available

End 1992 Jr Welterweight ratings

1 .Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Terrence Alli - Chavez Ko 6
4. Charles Murray
5. Morris East
6. Rafael Pineda
7. Carlos Gonzalez
8. Hector Lopez
9. Greg Haugen - Chavez Ko 5
10. Kostya Tszyu

End 1992 P4P ratings

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Terry Norris
4. Orlando Canizales
5. James (Buddy) McGirt
6. Rid**** Bowe
7. Azumah Nelson
8. Sung-Kil Moon
9. Julian Jackson
10. James Toney

End 1993 Jr Lightweight ratings

1. Julio Cesar Chavez
2. Juan Martin Coggi
3. Charles Murray
4. Zack Padilla
5. Kostya Tszyu
6. Carlos Gonzalez
7. Hector Lopez
8. David Kamau
9. Tony Lopez
10. Ray Oliveira

End 1993 P4P ratings

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Julio Cesar Chavez
3. James Toney
4. Michael Carbajal
5. Orlando Canizales
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Ricardo Lopez
8. Roy Jones Jr.
9. Kennedy McKinney
10. Yuri Arbachakov

-------------------------------------------------------

9+ years of Chavez being #1 in every division he was in, going undefeated and a good 3-4 years he was considered P4P the best in the world.

Manny could pass Chavez in the future but it's hard to match those numbers.

That is about all this thread needed. Someone to remember what actually happened back then and be able to document it. Chavez was simply better than Pacquiao could ever be at this stage. Pac's a great fighter and very exciting but he's just not Chavez good. Not really even very close actually. Anyone that honestly thinks Chavez fought only bums and did nothing seriously needs to have a close look at what he accomplished and who he fought and beat. The guy was incredible, like him or not.

[BennyST]

Thank you. that was the point I was trying to get across. Thank you for concurring that. So that said...throw in victories with past prime morales, marquez, larios and barrera plus add prime ledwaba, solis, and diaz victories and would you not say this whole "pac is wayy overrated" business is a bit farfetched??

When people start comparing him to Chavez, yes, he is getting very overrated.

I also agree wholeheartedly with Warp, this thread is right at the top of the saddest things at boxingscene right now.

[Silencers]

Not yet....