Mikkel Kessler: "If Joe Calzaghe Won't, I'll Fight Pavlik"

[Boofdatruth]

Calzaghe beat Hopkins far easily than Taylor did and Calzaghes a southpaw!

Neither guy beat hopkins any easier than the other. Prime Roy Jones is the only guy to clearly beat hop imo. And he didn't look like roy in those fights.

[Chase8400]

I'm glad I amaze you, but if so I suggest you stop looking at boxing from a US only vantage point. The only possibly contentious thing I said was that beating Jermain Taylor might not actually be that big a deal. I agree on paper he appears to be a vastly superior boxer to those on Kessler's resume, but that is on paper. Using the evidence of my eyes and experience of watching fights I have determined that Jermain Taylor is actually quite ****.

Even when he beat B-Hop he didn't exactly perform well, nowhere near as well as Calzaghe for example, and won both of those two fights basically by default, over a Hopkins who could no longer find the workrate required for middleweight and needed to move up, which he later did. You can judge boxing absolutely and solely by records if you like, but I prefer to use my eyes, and I saw Jermain gassing out and getting smacked all around the ring by Hopkins late on in both fights. Also, you may notice, in his two fights with Pavlik, how did Taylor look, thats right, he looked ****, because he is. Its a decent enough win for Kelly, not a bad result, but for a set of "career best wins" it should not be enough to elevate Kelly to the P4P status he currently enjoys. I'd say if Kelly is up on the P4P list then Calzaghe should have been on there years ago, sometime after he'd beaten all of Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Mitchell and Brewer, probably before.

On a side note, you like many, think that the win over Hopkins is the defining fight of Joe's career, and maybe it is if you're an American, but I and many Brits knew he would beat the old Hopkins and would vote both the Kessler and Eubank wins as better. Calzaghe beating Hopkins might have proved something to you, but it proved **** all to me, which was the reason I so confidently predicted a JC victory. Calzaghe answered all my questions when he beat Kessler so convincingly.

So if you consider me such a nuthugger, answer me this: what is your opinion on Kelly Pavlik, do you 1) believe he is indisputably better than Mikkel Kessler, 2) believe in his short career he has defeated genuinely stellar opposition, 3) believe he has proven himself to have an iron chin and 4) is conclusively the best MW in his division, let alone the most credible challenger for Joe Calzaghe?

The funniest thing of all is, that I don't even dislike Kelly Pavlik, I think he is quite good, but questioning some of the wilder things his fans say about him, and picking a better fighter to beat him is not "disrepecting him" its just assessing boxing. I may like the guy as a fighter but it doesn't mean I can agree when people say he KTFO the world.

First of all, you are responding to ME, so reference things that i have said. I have never said that Pavlik will def. beat Calzaghe. That would be very ignorant. Even if i was not VERY schooled in boxing. I have seen every Jermaine T. fight since about the one before the first Hopkins fight and totally dissagree that he looked like ****. IMO, he looked way better than Joe did against Hopkins. I am a Kelly Pavlik fan and think that he is in every facett better than Mikkel Kessler.
Responses:
1) Kessler is very impressive but does not have the full arsenal that Pavlik posseses, nor does he have the heart. See the Calzaghe fight and the first Taylor fight for proof. Pavlik has also come off the canvas to stop other fighters as well.
2) He has beat the competition that he had to, in order to prove that he is the best in the weight and that is all that counts. He beat the most feared fighter at the weight in Miranda and the very best at the weight in Taylor.
3)His chin is very tuff. As tough as Calzaghe's? Yet to be seen. Very good, yes. he took the very hardest punches that Taylor put out and they were succesive. Like 10 in a row. A lesser fighter would have been KO'd for sure. As far as I am concerned, they have both been down twice and Kelly's were due to harder punchers. Take that how you want to.
4) With no doubt, he would KO any middleweight easily. I pray that the Abraham fight happens because he is made for Pavlik. IMO, Abraham is the second best now and would be a good stepping stone to making Pavlik the #1 contender to Calzaghe. Right now, that is RJJ. Roy has all the tools to have Joe second guessing himself and losing his cool. I cannot say that about a whole lot of fighters at this time.

In closing, Calzaghe is in my top 6 fav fighters. I will list them if you want me to.That being said, the town or country they are from has no bearing on my decision to choose a fighter to win a fight.

[Johnny Rebel]

This would be a good match and I think Kessler will win it. Pavlik should take the fight since beating Kessler at SMW would most likely lure Calzaghe back for another fight after Jones, if Kelly really wants to fight Joe.

[abadger]

First of all, you are responding to ME, so reference things that i have said. I have never said that Pavlik will def. beat Calzaghe. That would be very ignorant. Even if i was not VERY schooled in boxing. I have seen every Jermaine T. fight since about the one before the first Hopkins fight and totally dissagree that he looked like ****. IMO, he looked way better than Joe did against Hopkins. I am a Kelly Pavlik fan and think that he is in every facett better than Mikkel Kessler.
Responses:
1) Kessler is very impressive but does not have the full arsenal that Pavlik posseses, nor does he have the heart. See the Calzaghe fight and the first Taylor fight for proof. Pavlik has also come off the canvas to stop other fighters as well.
2) He has beat the competition that he had to, in order to prove that he is the best in the weight and that is all that counts. He beat the most feared fighter at the weight in Miranda and the very best at the weight in Taylor.
3)His chin is very tuff. As tough as Calzaghe's? Yet to be seen. Very good, yes. he took the very hardest punches that Taylor put out and they were succesive. Like 10 in a row. A lesser fighter would have been KO'd for sure. As far as I am concerned, they have both been down twice and Kelly's were due to harder punchers. Take that how you want to.
4) With no doubt, he would KO any middleweight easily. I pray that the Abraham fight happens because he is made for Pavlik. IMO, Abraham is the second best now and would be a good stepping stone to making Pavlik the #1 contender to Calzaghe. Right now, that is RJJ. Roy has all the tools to have Joe second guessing himself and losing his cool. I cannot say that about a whole lot of fighters at this time.

In closing, Calzaghe is in my top 6 fav fighters. I will list them if you want me to.That being said, the town or country they are from has no bearing on my decision to choose a fighter to win a fight.

Great reply,

I don't agree Taylor looked better than Calzaghe against B-Hop. Calzaghe was far more active, forcing the fight and as I said, Taylor appeared to me to win basically by default.

I don't understand how you can think that Pavlik has a "better arsenal" than Kessler. He may hit harder but I think it is clear for all to see that Kessler is the much more gifted boxer and can throw a much wider array of punches in a much more technically proficient way than can Pavlik.

Pavlik for me has not fought enough competition for him to have the rep he does, even leaving aside their quality. I mean the guy has two defences. He beat them sure, but I think it is only logical to believe we need to see more.

Pavliks chin, I still think is questionable, but I can understand you thinking it is good. That is all a matter of how you interpret the Taylor KD. I see it as a big question mark that he went to his knees stunned (guys like Calzaghe and Margarito have never done this) but he did get back up to win, so I can see how you would interpret that favourably.

As for whether he is the best MW, well he might very well be, but like I say, he has to show it. For me that means definitely beating Abraham and maybe even beating Winky Wright. I like him as an opponent to Calzaghe though, especially since Cal already beat Kessler, and if he shows a little more in his next few fights I would have no problem making him the most credible challenger for sure, and I do believe he has a decent case now, just not proof.

If I had to summarise what I think about Pavlik, although I like him, I do feel he is somewhat overrated. I would like to see him do well, but I think he will run into trouble when he faces someone who can take a punch and has real boxing talent. I don't mean any particular style, because I think a really good brawler, a really good boxer or a really good counter puncher could all give him trouble, but the main criteria is someone who is able to exploit what is a glaring weakness in Kelly, the fact that that he is quite slow and quite predictable. Calzaghe I think would kill him, Kessler I would pick to definitely beat him, Abraham maybe and Winky doubtful. All in all though i don't think that's a negative assessment of Kelly, he still has plenty going for him.

[Boofdatruth]

First of all, you are responding to ME, so reference things that i have said. I have never said that Pavlik will def. beat Calzaghe. That would be very ignorant. Even if i was not VERY schooled in boxing. I have seen every Jermaine T. fight since about the one before the first Hopkins fight and totally dissagree that he looked like ****. IMO, he looked way better than Joe did against Hopkins. I am a Kelly Pavlik fan and think that he is in every facett better than Mikkel Kessler.
Responses:
1) Kessler is very impressive but does not have the full arsenal that Pavlik posseses, nor does he have the heart. See the Calzaghe fight and the first Taylor fight for proof. Pavlik has also come off the canvas to stop other fighters as well.
2) He has beat the competition that he had to, in order to prove that he is the best in the weight and that is all that counts. He beat the most feared fighter at the weight in Miranda and the very best at the weight in Taylor.
3)His chin is very tuff. As tough as Calzaghe's? Yet to be seen. Very good, yes. he took the very hardest punches that Taylor put out and they were succesive. Like 10 in a row. A lesser fighter would have been KO'd for sure. As far as I am concerned, they have both been down twice and Kelly's were due to harder punchers. Take that how you want to.
4) With no doubt, he would KO any middleweight easily. I pray that the Abraham fight happens because he is made for Pavlik. IMO, Abraham is the second best now and would be a good stepping stone to making Pavlik the #1 contender to Calzaghe. Right now, that is RJJ. Roy has all the tools to have Joe second guessing himself and losing his cool. I cannot say that about a whole lot of fighters at this time.

In closing, Calzaghe is in my top 6 fav fighters. I will list them if you want me to.That being said, the town or country they are from has no bearing on my decision to choose a fighter to win a fight.

I can go with what you said, but I would question your questioing of Kessler's heart. When did he lack showing heart? He fought until the end of the Calzaghe fight. This was a very objective post from a Pav fan, let me write this down lol. Good post Chase. Both Chase and Abadger going at it in a calm nondemeaning fdebate. That is what I like lol.

[Chase8400]

Great reply,

I don't agree Taylor looked better than Calzaghe against B-Hop. Calzaghe was far more active, forcing the fight and as I said, Taylor appeared to me to win basically by default.

I don't understand how you can think that Pavlik has a "better arsenal" than Kessler. He may hit harder but I think it is clear for all to see that Kessler is the much more gifted boxer and can throw a much wider array of punches in a much more technically proficient way than can Pavlik.

Pavlik for me has not fought enough competition for him to have the rep he does, even leaving aside their quality. I mean the guy has two defences. He beat them sure, but I think it is only logical to believe we need to see more.

Pavliks chin, I still think is questionable, but I can understand you thinking it is good. That is all a matter of how you interpret the Taylor KD. I see it as a big question mark that he went to his knees stunned (guys like Calzaghe and Margarito have never done this) but he did get back up to win, so I can see how you would interpret that favourably.

As for whether he is the best MW, well he might very well be, but like I say, he has to show it. For me that means definitely beating Abraham and maybe even beating Winky Wright. I like him as an opponent to Calzaghe though, especially since Cal already beat Kessler, and if he shows a little more in his next few fights I would have no problem making him the most credible challenger for sure, and I do believe he has a decent case now, just not proof.

If I had to summarise what I think about Pavlik, although I like him, I do feel he is somewhat overrated. I would like to see him do well, but I think he will run into trouble when he faces someone who can take a punch and has real boxing talent. I don't mean any particular style, because I think a really good brawler, a really good boxer or a really good counter puncher could all give him trouble, but the main criteria is someone who is able to exploit what is a glaring weakness in Kelly, the fact that that he is quite slow and quite predictable. Calzaghe I think would kill him, Kessler I would pick to definitely beat him, Abraham maybe and Winky doubtful. All in all though i don't think that's a negative assessment of Kelly, he still has plenty going for him.

Fair enough, looks like we have a good points supporting our opinions. One thing that I will respond to if the use of punches. I think that Pavlik has every punch there is. Uppercut, straight right, left hook, right hook, excellent jab. He just throws them all and he is a known finisher. Look at the way Lockett looked after just 2 rounds as testimony to that. He was beaten silly. Welts and bruises, bloody nose. Granted, he is no "Super" Joe, but there must be something said for Enzo saying that he would KO Pavlik after seeing him train, etc.... That must mean that Enzo thought that Lockett's game was not too far behind Joe's or at least he gained some respect in the gym. He came out and did all that he could and the best he could muster up was to not quit himself. (I respect him for taking the lumps and not walking back to his corner and quiting) The gap in skill is not as far apart as you may think between Pavlik and Calzaghe. The style contrast is vast , but the quality of their last 3 oponents are not too far off and I think that Kelly has won more decisively than Joe has.

My opinion, for now. Only time will tell how this will play out. Lets just hope that we get to see these things unfold and be happy that for the first time in a long time ; the best fighters are fighting the other best fighters. Our sport has been lacking that for a while and I for one am excited that we may be arguing these points and acually see the fights come to fruition. back in the day, we would be doing this and never get to see who's man was better. Times have changed, and I am proud as hell to be a boxing fan in 2008!

[Chase8400]

I can go with what you said, but I would question your questioing of Kessler's heart. When did he lack showing heart? He fought until the end of the Calzaghe fight. This was a very objective post from a Pav fan, let me write this down lol. Good post Chase. Both Chase and Abadger going at it in a calm nondemeaning fdebate. That is what I like lol.

Definitely not lacking heart. I did'nt mean that. But, as you and I both saw, he lost a little courage in the end and was not pushed as far as Pavlik was in the first Taylor fight. He was giving up a bit even though he was still swinging. He was unsure of himself, when Kelly was tested, he surged toward stopping Taylor. Kessler felt overwhelmed and kinda coasted off of habit. That does'nt make him an inferior fighter, but did show me that he does not have quite the amount of heart that Pavlik posseses. In any rate, I would love to see the fight. Almost as much as Pavlik-Abraham.

[abadger]

Fair enough, looks like we have a good points supporting our opinions. One thing that I will respond to if the use of punches. I think that Pavlik has every punch there is. Uppercut, straight right, left hook, right hook, excellent jab. He just throws them all and he is a known finisher. Look at the way Lockett looked after just 2 rounds as testimony to that. He was beaten silly. Welts and bruises, bloody nose. Granted, he is no "Super" Joe, but there must be something said for Enzo saying that he would KO Pavlik after seeing him train, etc.... That must mean that Enzo thought that Lockett's game was not too far behind Joe's or at least he gained some respect in the gym. He came out and did all that he could and the best he could muster up was to not quit himself. (I respect him for taking the lumps and not walking back to his corner and quiting) The gap in skill is not as far apart as you may think between Pavlik and Calzaghe. The style contrast is vast , but the quality of their last 3 oponents are not too far off and I think that Kelly has won more decisively than Joe has.

My opinion, for now. Only time will tell how this will play out. Lets just hope that we get to see these things unfold and be happy that for the first time in a long time ; the best fighters are fighting the other best fighters. Our sport has been lacking that for a while and I for one am excited that we may be arguing these points and acually see the fights come to fruition. back in the day, we would be doing this and never get to see who's man was better. Times have changed, and I am proud as hell to be a boxing fan in 2008!

I too hope we do see Pavlik v Calzaghe, but first (of course!) a couple of points:

I seriously doubt that Enzo gave Lockett anything other than "a punchers chance", since Lockett was supposed to be a hard puncher. Enzo of course has to talk up his fighter.

As for the skill differential between Calzaghe and Pavlik, I think you're very wrong about that (and I believe most would agree with me) not to criticise, but maybe your looking with a Pavlik fans eyes? He does throw harder, crisper punches but boxing is about way more than that, and Joe is vastly better in terms of timing, movement, distance, speed etc, which is really the meat of a boxers game. There really is no comparison, and that is the truth. Maybe one day Kelly might show these things, but until now he's never had too, he just blasts guys out.

Again, a good post though.

[Kesslerfan#1]

This would be a good match and I think Kessler will win it. Pavlik should take the fight since beating Kessler at SMW would most likely lure Calzaghe back for another fight after Jones, if Kelly really wants to fight Joe.

BRAVO BRAVO!!!!!!
Yes Great post you are right IMO.
The balls really in Kelly's court...I cant see Kessler making MW and why should Calzaghe either??
But then again its up to Pav too...he's the champ after all and moving up might not be right for him...time will tell though.
I cant ****en wait to see how this unfolds though but at the end of the day a Calzaghe vs Pavlik fight would be the **** and the bigger money spinner (as much as I like Kessler)
Moving up to SMW to fight Kess would be great but Kess is a huge SMW...I hope it happens as you said with Calzaghe to fight the winner to possibly seal his legacy once and for all.

[Chase8400]

I too hope we do see Pavlik v Calzaghe, but first (of course!) a couple of points:

I seriously doubt that Enzo gave Lockett anything other than "a punchers chance", since Lockett was supposed to be a hard puncher. Enzo of course has to talk up his fighter. (Chase agrees)

As for the skill differential between Calzaghe and Pavlik, I think you're very wrong about that (and I believe most would agree with me) not to criticise, but maybe your looking with a Pavlik fans eyes?

Maybe so, but that could be seen in reverse fashion as well. (Calzaghe fans eyes)