Who Should Calzaghe Have Beat?

[Kilrain]

He should have tried to unify 168 way earlier than he did. He had like 17 defenses before he finally grew the balls to fight another titleholder (Lacy). When there was absolutely no one at 168, he should have moved up to 175 and fought some decent contenders like Harding, Johnson, Tarver, etc. and forced a fight with RJJ. There's a ton of **** Calzaghe could have done rather than face mismandatory after mismandatory with handpicked opponents sprinkled in between. Calzaghe was content making a living fighting bums rather than trying to prove to the world he's a great fighter. He is still in that mode as he's busy cherry picking guys with names who are past their primes rather than going after the best...

Flawless post.

[abadger]

Who you beat defines your career. Better wins=a better legacy.

If Calzaghe wanted to be known as one of the best fighters of all time, he would have moved up a weight class and challenged Roy Jones Jr. If he could have beat him, he would be known as one of the best fighters of all time. Happy?

Who should Calzaghe have beat to make him more respected in people's eyes? He should have beaten Eric Lucas, Sven Ottke, Glen Johnson, Roy Jones Jr., Antonio Tarver, Clinton Woods, Darius Michaelziwowski(or whatever, haha), Thomas Adamek, Reggie Jonson, and/or Chad Dawson. That is the answer to your question. You cant fight everyone, but be honest with yourself...If Calzaghe would have beat any of the above, he would be more respected, wouldnt he?

Well, no I'm not so sure that he would. You are right that who you beat defines your legacy, but I'm not sure that most of those names would add anything to Joes legacy at all. Eric Lucas would have been a nice-ish name on Joe's mid career resume but no better than Veit and Sheika , who are now derided as bums. An Ottke win would be discounted completely. Michaelziwowski would definitely have been excellent but overlooks the fact that he has been a LHW for his entire career, wheras Joe was a SMW, same goes for Adamek. The Reggie Jonson that Joe could have fought might have been better than some of the other names he fought, but would hardly 'add to his legacy' in any meaningful way. Chad Dawson is a fight that could only happen around about now. I think there is definitely a case for the other names on your list though.

I think that expecting Joe to have fought and beaten all these fighters requires that the fighters he did beat, lots of whom were at a similar level, be completely overlooked. I think if he had fought and beaten the names you list instead of the ones he did, we'd be having this argument now with you bringing the other fighters up. As I said, you can't beat everyone.

[Steak]

Well, no I'm not so sure that he would. You are right that who you beat defines your legacy, but I'm not sure that most of those names would add anything to Joes legacy at all. Eric Lucas would have been a nice-ish name on Joe's mid career resume but no better than Veit and Sheika , who are now derided as bums. An Ottke win would be discounted completely. Michaelziwowski would definitely have been excellent but overlooks the fact that he has been a LHW for his entire career, wheras Joe was a SMW, same goes for Adamek. The Reggie Jonson that Joe could have fought might have been better than some of the other names he fought, but would hardly 'add to his legacy' in any meaningful way. Chad Dawson is a fight that could only happen around about now. I think there is definitely a case for the other names on your list though.

I think that expecting Joe to have fought and beaten all these fighters requires that the fighters he did beat, lots of whom were at a similar level, be completely overlooked. I think if he had fought and beaten the names you list instead of the ones he did, we'd be having this argument now with you bringing the other fighters up. As I said, you can't beat everyone.

Eric Lucas has at least been a title holder, and is definately better than Sheika and Veit. Hell, Im pretty sure that Lucas ended up beating Sheika pretty one sidedly, unless Im getting mixed up.
A win over Ottke would still have been looked at as a very good win, especially if Calzaghe knocked him out.(the only way Calzaghe would have ended up winning if he fought Ottke in Germany). Ottke was good at surviving, if anything. Not only that, but Calzaghe would have gained another belt, which would have given his title rein much more legitimacy than that solo WBO belt.
Reggie Johnson is a former Middleweight and Light Heavyweight champion who has a win over Steve Collins, who went on to beat Chris Eubank...one of Calzaghe's best wins. Johnson also gave Tarver hell. If Calzaghe would have beaten him, he would probebly be at the very least the fourth best name on Calzaghe's record. At the very least, Calzaghe could have made a case saying that he beat the same people that Roy Jones did.

And when are you going to realize that if you want to be regarded as one of the best fighters of all time, you HAVE to go after the biggest fights? That includes moving up weight classes to go after title holders there. There were no big fights at 168 for Calzaghe, so he should have moved up a long time ago or at least unified the titles. In this day and age, having one title belt doesnt mean anything because theyre so worthless, unless the opponents youre facing are very notable.

[abadger]

Eric Lucas has at least been a title holder, and is definately better than Sheika and Veit. Hell, Im pretty sure that Lucas ended up beating Sheika pretty one sidedly, unless Im getting mixed up.
A win over Ottke would still have been looked at as a very good win, especially if Calzaghe knocked him out.(the only way Calzaghe would have ended up winning if he fought Ottke in Germany). Ottke was good at surviving, if anything. Not only that, but Calzaghe would have gained another belt, which would have given his title rein much more legitimacy than that solo WBO belt.
Reggie Johnson is a former Middleweight and Light Heavyweight champion who has a win over Steve Collins, who went on to beat Chris Eubank...one of Calzaghe's best wins. Johnson also gave Tarver hell. If Calzaghe would have beaten him, he would probebly be at the very least the fourth best name on Calzaghe's record. At the very least, Calzaghe could have made a case saying that he beat the same people that Roy Jones did.

And when are you going to realize that if you want to be regarded as one of the best fighters of all time, you HAVE to go after the biggest fights? That includes moving up weight classes to go after title holders there. There were no big fights at 168 for Calzaghe, so he should have moved up a long time ago or at least unified the titles. In this day and age, having one title belt doesnt mean anything because theyre so worthless, unless the opponents youre facing are very notable.

Well, the relative merits of the fighters are always up for debate, but neither you nor I can say for sure. Even if you are correct in your assessment and I am wrong, I still don't think that wins over any of the ones we talked about would have done anything appreciable for Calzaghe's resume, it would just be a different set of fighters that everyone claimed were no good.

As for this ATG argument, I'm not saying any such thing and I agree with you that to get that status you've got to do really great things. The opinion I am seeking to argue against is the one that you probably do not hold, that Calzaghe is somehow below the elite level.

It's been good debating with someone prepared to talk boxing though, but right now I'm going to need a break and to watch tonights fights! I'll probably get back into this thread later tonight or tomorrow and post about Jones, Tarver, Woods etc like I did about Johnson, not that anyone will care.