what if: James Toney vs. Joe Calzaghe @ 168 (Prime for prime)

[daggum]

Everyone who's followed his career must be lying then. You don't knock Eubank clean accross the ring or have Mitchell stumbling like a drunk if you have no power.

Curry was ruined by the time Nunn got to him BTW, which pretty much just leaves Tate and Kalambay as his only top level stoppages by my memory, neither at 168lb.

eubank was ruined by the time calzaghe fought him so was mitchell blah blah blah mitchell has absolutely no chin and is not a top fighter blah blah blah discredit wars.

[Cletus Funk]

Calzaghe in my opinion is better off fighting the way he fights. Actually, Lacy would have actually had his chances against early Calzaghe. Calzaghe is now more slick, better defensively, has better boxing skills and is buiser than he was when he was in his prime. Prime Calzaghe was carried away with punching and didn't have the skills that he has now. He was too brave and it would have costed him if he was fighting a puncher like Lacy and Kessler. The style that he has now is better for him, despite the lack of pop in his punches..

In some ways I agree but I think in the Woodhall and Sheika (to some extent) fights he showed a best compromise between his earlier and what was to become his later styles.

Where Nunn went wrong was that he didn't conserve his energy in the early stages of the fight. He would box, move and throw volume punches for the entire time, which wore him out and why he didn't have anything left in the tank late.

Couldn't agree more.

I can't say that Toney wasn't at his best against Tiberi ,Thazi and Griffin but you can say that he wasn't at his best against Reid and Hopkins? I have yet to hear a reasonable excuse for Calzaghe in either fights. I still believe that he has a weakness against technical boxers and counter punchers. Counters are what systematically broke Jirov down over the course of the fight becuase he would like Calzaghe, get squared up, abandon his defense and throw volume punches. Hopkins and Reid both were able to take advantage of this by timing him with counters on the way in and using rought tactics. Toney is a throw back to the old fighters becuase his inside game is superior to anyone of the 90's and he can take a hell of a shot. Thats where Calzaghe would have problems. He does not have anything to get Toney's respect and Toney have everything in his arsenal to get Calzaghe's.

When did I say you couldn't say that? I was criticising your example of the Nunn fight as an exceptional Toney performance - it wasn't.

Calzaghe has never been countered to death over the course of a fight. He might be susceptible to it early but he's always found a way to adapt. Toney really doesn't bring a whole lot of variation and looks lost when his usual game doesn't work, which is pretty much every time he doesn't have a speed advantage over the other guy.

Calzaghe has not faced anyone like James Toney and honestly, i can't say the same things about Toney. He has fought every name fighter and caught a major belt from middleweight clear up to heavyweight. Think about it, who has Calzaghe beaten that is similar to Toney or as good technically? Lacy? A one dimensional ****er that was overrated by the public and many boxing observers. A great impressive win over an unbeaten favorite, but no. Kessler? A straight up style European fighter that is not elusive and one dimensional. He just goes back and fourth and fights off of what his opponents does. Hopkins even at that stage in his career made Calzaghe look average. Why? because he used his tools and studdied Calzaghe. He knew that he has the flaws that i mentioned. Thats why i would favor a young Hopkins(or even the Hopkins that fought Taylor over Calzaghe. Robin Reid was a good fighter, but never elite. Toney is on an entire different level than these fighters. Calzaghe matching well against any top notch elusive counter puncher/technical boxer is something that i don't see happening becuase again, he has those flaws.

Nobody fight's exactly like Toney but Calzaghe's seen everything that Toney has to offer through a combination of opponents. He really isn't very hard to figure out and he does get hit plenty, probably more than Hopkins.

Calzaghe looked poor against Hopkins, no doubt. Most people would faced with that kind of negativity. A prime Hopkins wouldn't have fought like that and would've played into Cal's strengths more. That wasn't a prime JC in there either, BTW. Cazaghe did pretty well fighting injured against counterpuncher Reid and against Eubank, who's as akward as they come, in his first step up in class.

Toney stopped Barkely in the 10th round and won the IBF super middleweight championship. Also, the Benn/Barkely fight occured well before the Barkely/Toney fight.

I was talking about Nunn v Barkley

[slicksouthpaw16]

In some ways I agree but I think in the Woodhall and Sheika (to some extent) fights he showed a best compromise between his earlier and what was to become his later styles.



Couldn't agree more.



When did I say you couldn't say that? I was criticising your example of the Nunn fight as an exceptional Toney performance - it wasn't.

Calzaghe has never been countered to death over the course of a fight. He might be susceptible to it early but he's always found a way to adapt. Toney really doesn't bring a whole lot of variation and looks lost when his usual game doesn't work, which is pretty much every time he doesn't have a speed advantage over the other guy.



Nobody fight's exactly like Toney but Calzaghe's seen everything that Toney has to offer through a combination of opponents. He really isn't very hard to figure out and he does get hit plenty, probably more than Hopkins.

Calzaghe looked poor against Hopkins, no doubt. Most people would faced with that kind of negativity. A prime Hopkins wouldn't have fought like that and would've played into Cal's strengths more. That wasn't a prime JC in there either, BTW. Cazaghe did pretty well fighting injured against counterpuncher Reid and against Eubank, who's as akward as they come, in his first step up in class.




I was talking about Nunn v Barkley

Good points, even though i don't agree.

[Cletus Funk]

eubank was ruined by the time calzaghe fought him so was mitchell blah blah blah mitchell has absolutely no chin and is not a top fighter blah blah blah discredit wars.

Eubank was 31 and had 2 pretty impressive fights at CW after that.

It's amazing that nobody managed to stop Mitchell before then, hey?

[slicksouthpaw16]

I think he meant the Nunn vs Barkley fight. That was a pitiful display but so was Benn vs Barkley.

The referee let Benn hit Barkley about 3 times on the floor with rabbit punches, then he stops the fight because of the 3 knockdown rule although Barkley was still ready to fight.
That fight along with Pac vs Marquez I are the best reasons why the 3 knockdown rule should not be used.

Anyway Barkley was a tough guy and I never saw him truly KO'd atleast in his prime.


Here's the 1 round war, too bad it was cut short.

Yeah i agree. Benn had a few fights where there were biased referee's. See Benn vs Mcclellan( If you haven't already). The ref would get on Gerald's case when he would do the slightest things, but completely ignored it when Benn would hit behind the head or after the break.

[Cletus Funk]

Good points, even though i don't agree.

Likewise. Take it easy

[P4P Opinion]

One question.

If calzaghe could hardly land on a 43 year old hopkins.

How on earth would he land on Prime James Toney?

PS. I hope no one tries to tell me Calzaghe had more power than Toney at 168 pounds.

Joe Calzaghe wasn't in his prime against Hopkins. He isn't over the hill, but no way is he in his prime anymore. As for your power question, try searching out some videos of Calzaghe before he fucked his hands up. He landed absolute bombs, which seems odd considering he doesn't punch that hard anymore.

I'm really not sure when Calzaghe's prime even was. Arguably it was against Lacy, but his hands were fucked at that stage. It might be a possibility that Joe fought in his prime against bums. Did he have his ring experience or defence in the days when he could punch hard though?

I'm not sure who I'd back prime for prime, purely because I'm not sure which Calzaghe would be fighting. One thing is for damn sure though, the Calzaghe who beat Lacy with the hands he had when he was younger punishes Toney badly. If that Calzaghe were possible, he punishes virtually anyone.

[abadger]

Joe Calzaghe wasn't in his prime against Hopkins. He isn't over the hill, but no way is he in his prime anymore. As for your power question, try searching out some videos of Calzaghe before he fucked his hands up. He landed absolute bombs, which seems odd considering he doesn't punch that hard anymore.

I'm really not sure when Calzaghe's prime even was. Arguably it was against Lacy, but his hands were fucked at that stage. It might be a possibility that Joe fought in his prime against bums. Did he have his ring experience or defence in the days when he could punch hard though?

I'm not sure who I'd back prime for prime, purely because I'm not sure which Calzaghe would be fighting. One thing is for damn sure though, the Calzaghe who beat Lacy with the hands he had when he was younger punishes Toney badly. If that Calzaghe were possible, he punishes virtually anyone.

Teriffic post.

[1g5a22]

firstly the americans have only recently clapped eyes on joe, i bet theres not one on here who followed his career pre lacy..

secondly your judging him on the hopkins fight which was a bad performance and the whole argument that hopkins won is purely based on the knockdown which is laughable,kessler was a master class in boxing,but his power has gone that i dont dispute ...

thirdly u know **** about joes prime regardless of opponents he was a class apart FROM ANYONE and would have been a handfull for any of the 160ish pounders in history..

fourthly he would have boxed fat ass toneys head off prime for prime.

[Fi5hbone]

These two guys were fighting completely different kinds of opposition during their respective primes...While James Toney was fighting the best guys there were in and around his weight class during his prime, Calzaghe was beating up on ESPN 2 allstars...

Toney UD12