Freddie Roach doing more Harm Then good with Pacquiao?

[loui_ludwig]

Roach is doing a good job with Pac. Pac knows that he can't fight like his oldself cuz it will take a toll on his body.

What i want to see is Emmanuel Steward to train Pac. Not for a training for an upcoming fight. But to train him for at least 2-4 weeks between break during fights. A light sparring that will work on techniques.

[Silencers]

Yeah, when you fight instinct you end up rather than relying on natural rhythm, trying to use your head - "I need to remember to move my head, I need to counter the right, alright...stop bouncing on my toes...etc."

I think, though, that what you said about the Marquez fight is a double edged sword. When Manny brawled in spurts he'd score well and throw Marquez off. If he relied on brawling though, I think Juan would have used his technical skills to punish Pacquiao. While Manny had success being the old Pacman in short bursts, I feel that was mainly because Marquez wouldn't have as much time to acclimate to the onslaught before Pacquiao had landed a few bombs.

Sure, it looked like flashes of the old Manny had the answer- but I feel like it was deceptive. If Pacquiao had kept brawling rather than only doing it in spurts Marquez would have countered him harshly and Manny would have lost.

That's why I said I think Roach should add more technique to his brawling style and try to not make Pacquiao what he isn't, give Pacquiao some better head movement, his feet are OK now, work on him not moving out of position when he throws power shots and Pacquiao should do fine. Trying to make him into a pure boxer, while it might help longevity, I think would hurt more than help right now.

[Njord777]

That's why I said I think Roach should add more technique to his brawling style and try to not make Pacquiao what he isn't, give Pacquiao some better head movement, his feet are OK now, work on him not moving out of position when he throws power shots and Pacquiao should do fine. Trying to make him into a pure boxer, while it might help longevity, I think would hurt more than help right now.

Agreed- but I'm not sure Roach is really trying to make Manny into a pure boxer. I think he's trying to slide him into a role as a tactical brawler; if that's even possible. Really, I think the test is going to be in the next two or three fights. Right now we might be seeing a transitional stage for Pacquiao; he's learning the movement and skills Roach is teaching him but also trying to make the things Roach wants him to cut back on so much less apparent he spends too much time thinking about it and less getting into a rhythm. I think Freddie is just trying to get Pacman ready for a move up in weight. If Manny's been dropped by brawling against smaller men he doesn't need to be fighting a larger one and taking the punishment- you know?

[Silencers]

Agreed- but I'm not sure Roach is really trying to make Manny into a pure boxer. I think he's trying to slide him into a role as a tactical brawler; if that's even possible. Really, I think the test is going to be in the next two or three fights. Right now we might be seeing a transitional stage for Pacquiao; he's learning the movement and skills Roach is teaching him but also trying to make the things Roach wants him to cut back on so much less apparent he spends too much time thinking about it and less getting into a rhythm. I think Freddie is just trying to get Pacman ready for a move up in weight. If Manny's been dropped by brawling against smaller men he doesn't need to be fighting a larger one and taking the punishment- you know?

I understand. We'll see what happens.

[Njord777]

I understand. We'll see what happens.

Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with you that Manny is going to offer less sudden, spectacular knock-outs, swamp his opponent less, and be generally less aggressive under the guidance of Roach. But I also feel like Freddie would catch MAJOR slack if he let Pacquiao keep brawling and then, after a move-up in weight, we found out that like many little men Manny just can't handle the difference in power when he trades the way he does and gets KTFO. Then we'd be hearing fans bitching, "What was Roach getting paid to do? Did he even change Manny's style at all..?"

[MELLY-MEL...]

e ha taken away some of the blood and guts manny we all olve, but it's overall for the best as i am unsure manny would have gotten this far, and be able to still compete at such a high level with his previous style. plus as with everyone, age, and the ability to make weight become harder as time goes on thus starting to show a little with manny.

[Domain]

I hear what you're saying but I don't think it's possible for Freddie to add what he needs to Pacquiao's game while retaining what he had. Manny used to trade more; throw more wild, aggressive combinations. He used to get hurt more because of it. Take more damage. Like I said, he was so rough a brawler that he'd been knocked out by people far below him in potential and renown.

I understand you're saying, "If only Roach could keep his aggressive tendencies and yet hone his skills.." but I think Freddie is fighting against Manny's instinct. An instinct not to think; just to react. To take the punches because he has the chin and then, while the opponent is open, get his own shots off.

Though Manny may be less aggressive Roach is going to add longevity to Pacquiao's career and actually make him harder to beat. I think the Manny of a few years ago would have lost to Marquez; maybe even gotten stopped.

and thats what is messing pacman up, no slight on pacman but he is too busy thinking or remembering what roach is trying to teach him...it seems to baffle or confuse manny so his focus is mushed in the ring.

I think they just need manny to be manny the same guy who demolished hector velasquez he was aggressive but a bit controlled and he looked comfortable.

its like roach is trying to make many something he is not and thats got a big mental challenge for manny he doesnt feel comfortable it seems with his new style.

[Domain]

Roach is doing a good job with Pac. Pac knows that he can't fight like his oldself cuz it will take a toll on his body.

What i want to see is Emmanuel Steward to train Pac. Not for a training for an upcoming fight. But to train him for at least 2-4 weeks between break during fights. A light sparring that will work on techniques.

Its all good knowing that Roach and Pacman will forever be in Boxing history has one of the most famous Tandems ever in boxing like ali and dundee.

But I think if Steward took over for pacman at that time before the barrera fight Steward would of been able to improve pacman and work off his natural ability earlier.

[ml2niceguy]

yeah i aint really feelin roach's training

[Njord777]

and thats what is messing pacman up, no slight on pacman but he is too busy thinking or remembering what roach is trying to teach him...it seems to baffle or confuse manny so his focus is mushed in the ring.

I think they just need manny to be manny the same guy who demolished hector velasquez he was aggressive but a bit controlled and he looked comfortable.

its like roach is trying to make many something he is not and thats got a big mental challenge for manny he doesnt feel comfortable it seems with his new style.

Pacman was a rough brawler for years before Roach stepped in and began the transformation. It takes time to change habits in the ring- I think this might just be a transition as Manny tries and mold himself to Freddie's teachings. Even if it doesn't work I bet it's necessary; if Manny is moving up in weight he can't afford to trade the way he's accustom to- the difference in power might make his style not only ineffective for him, but dangerous..