Freddie Roach doing more Harm Then good with Pacquiao?

[Domain]

I agree with the Ring magazine editor, collins who said pacman failed to attack aggressively like the manny of old.

Do you think Roach telling pacman to just throw 1 or 2 shots and pick his shot so he doesnt get roughed up is hurting him more then helping him?

I noticed the last time pacman turned it up was when he was cut during the solis fight and he started fighting aggressive again finished solis off with constant pressure and never backing down.

now it seems with the marco and jmm fight he is trying to be more of a boxer, its gonna be hard if anything they need to just work on many lunging in to the body with his face open! thats bad right there manny needs to learn to get the fight inside with his hands together.

if manny moved in with his face covered like winky style and then unleashed combos to the body on jmm he would of had more success because i notice marquez has to pull back his punches or step back, pacmans arms are shorter so he would have the advantage inside.

[ELPacman]

To answer your question, no. I feel Manny is just declining overall. He's had a style that couldn't last that good forever and you had to wonder just how long his hunger would remain to keep such an aggressive style that'll take a toll on him. But as far as what happened in the Marquez bout, a lot of it had to do with Marquez. He neutralized a lot of Manny. Took away his right hook effectively while avoiding the left minus that 1 big incident in the 3rd. I feel the only reason Manny won the fight is because he was fairly active and some judges hate to give rounds to the guy not initiating the fight.

[Domain]

To answer your question, no. I feel Manny is just declining overall. He's had a style that couldn't last that good forever and you had to wonder just how long his hunger would remain to keep such an aggressive style that'll take a toll on him. But as far as what happened in the Marquez bout, a lot of it had to do with Marquez. He neutralized a lot of Manny. Took away his right hook effectively while avoiding the left minus that 1 big incident in the 3rd. I feel the only reason Manny won the fight is because he was fairly active and some judges hate to give rounds to the guy not initiating the fight.

true I think if anything he should be at 135 maybe that will make him fresher, because cutting too much weight saps your energy I heard pacman came to camp weighing 155.

if you also notice during the fight his body fat was so low so he was squeezing water out which is dangerous..while marquez still had some body fat.

[Njord777]

You have to remember the "Manny of old" was a rough brawler with a pressure style that had been knocked out twice before he matured as a fighter and has often been seen being stunned and hurt when he opens up. Freddie Roach has attempted to calm him down a bit; lessen Pacquiao's take three to give four mentality. He's taught him to use both hands more, given him better movement- I agree with ElPacman here, I just feel as if the punishment Manny takes is slowly going to catch up with him. His eventual decline won't be due to Roach- it'll be due to his mental game and the accumulation of punishment he's absorbed in all his wars.

[ELPacman]

true I think if anything he should be at 135 maybe that will make him fresher, because cutting too much weight saps your energy I heard pacman came to camp weighing 155.

Yeah weight has a lot to do with his stamina and strength, but I mean in general. I don't know how much Manny has left in him mentally to keep this up. He's done so much, and they have so much more planned for him including 2 more fights for this year and who knows what more next year. Manny said in a recent interview when they asked him when he'll retire and he replied that Marquez is 34 and still doing good so... I really don't think Manny could keep up that style to that age.

[ELPacman]

I like to add, Freddy in no way is bad for Manny. Infact, Roach has to be commended for what he referred to as Manny, his best work. He took an immensly raw fighter, that just had physical strength and power over his opponents, and turned him into a more patient, complete fighter. Now when I say, complete, I mean a complete OFFENSIVE fighter. Manny may be the most complete offensive fighter of this era. That's what people will talk about in years after he retires.

[Silencers]

In some ways, yes, in some ways, no.

I think Roach is trying a bit too hard to make Pacquiao what he isn't, he's trying to make Pacquiao into a pure boxer a bit too much and it's taking away from his old aggressive style, which has been so effective. But, it's good in a way that it's making Pacquiao a more thinking fighter, a better rounded fighter with more punches in his arsenal but if only Roach could keep the old style and add stuff to it, Pacquiao would be a better fighter IMO.

[Njord777]

In some ways, yes, in some ways, no.

I think Roach is trying a bit too hard to make Pacquiao what he isn't, he's trying to make Pacquiao into a pure boxer a bit too much and it's taking away from his old aggressive style, which has been so effective. But, it's good in a way that it's making Pacquiao a more thinking fighter, a better rounded fighter with more punches in his arsenal but if only Roach could keep the old style and add stuff to it, Pacquiao would be a better fighter IMO.

I hear what you're saying but I don't think it's possible for Freddie to add what he needs to Pacquiao's game while retaining what he had. Manny used to trade more; throw more wild, aggressive combinations. He used to get hurt more because of it. Take more damage. Like I said, he was so rough a brawler that he'd been knocked out by people far below him in potential and renown.

I understand you're saying, "If only Roach could keep his aggressive tendencies and yet hone his skills.." but I think Freddie is fighting against Manny's instinct. An instinct not to think; just to react. To take the punches because he has the chin and then, while the opponent is open, get his own shots off.

Though Manny may be less aggressive Roach is going to add longevity to Pacquiao's career and actually make him harder to beat. I think the Manny of a few years ago would have lost to Marquez; maybe even gotten stopped.

[Silencers]

I hear what you're saying but I don't think it's possible for Freddie to add what he needs to Pacquiao's game while retaining what he had. Manny used to trade more; throw more wild, aggressive combinations. He used to get hurt more because of it. Take more damage. Like I said, he was so rough a brawler that he'd been knocked out by people far below him in potential and renown.

I understand you're saying, "If only Roach could keep his aggressive tendencies and yet hone his skills.." but I think Freddie is fighting against Manny's instinct. An instinct not to think; just to react. To take the punches because he has the chin and then, while the opponent is open, get his own shots off.

Though Manny may be less aggressive Roach is going to add longevity to Pacquiao's career and actually make him harder to beat. I think the Manny of a few years ago would have lost to Marquez; maybe even gotten stopped.

Exactly.

I think Pacquiao is thinking a bit too much in there though, sometimes it's better to let instinct take over, because when he went back a bit to the old Pacquiao and started exchanging with Marquez was when Pacquiao had his best success. I just think he over thinks sometimes because he's not used to this style of fighting and that could lead to future problems.

[Njord777]

Exactly.

I think Pacquiao is thinking a bit too much in there though, sometimes it's better to let instinct take over, because when he went back a bit to the old Pacquiao and started exchanging with Marquez was when Pacquiao had his best success. I just think he over thinks sometimes because he's not used to this style of fighting and that could lead to future problems.

Yeah, when you fight instinct you end up rather than relying on natural rhythm, trying to use your head - "I need to remember to move my head, I need to counter the right, alright...stop bouncing on my toes...etc."

I think, though, that what you said about the Marquez fight is a double edged sword. When Manny brawled in spurts he'd score well and throw Marquez off. If he relied on brawling though, I think Juan would have used his technical skills to punish Pacquiao. While Manny had success being the old Pacman in short bursts, I feel that was mainly because Marquez wouldn't have as much time to acclimate to the onslaught before Pacquiao had landed a few bombs.

Sure, it looked like flashes of the old Manny had the answer- but I feel like it was deceptive. If Pacquiao had kept brawling rather than only doing it in spurts Marquez would have countered him harshly and Manny would have lost.