Lewis, overated or a true Heavyweight great?

[ferociouso]

1) ali
foreman
lewis
tyson
frasier
norton
toney

[Soundtraveler]

Well WHDempsey, I believe Tyson and Lewis DID spar as youths and in fact Tyson actually stayed with the Lewis family for a short time. As I heard it they sparred with neither fighter going down, but I can tell you that Manny Steward told me personally that Lewis considered Tyson to be the least threat of anyone to beat him! He always knew Tyson couldn't reach him without leaving his feet, thus losing the tremendous power he had in those legs.

As for me saying Marciano would be a Cruiserweight, well, look it up, Rocky when in his prime, fought at 185lbs.!! Todays Heavyweights average around the 230lb mark. Marciano weighing in at 185lbs makes him a Cruiserweight in my book.

Marciano by the way, had the shortest reach of any Heavyweight Champ on record at just 68". Tyson at his peak would weigh 25 to 35lbs MORE than Marciano on basically the same frame, but Iron Mike has a longer reach. For that matter even Featherweight Champ Sandy Saddler had a 2 inch reach advantage on Marciano!

I have of course been speaking of Marciano and Lewis fighting in their primes, as I was with Lewis vs Tyson. Do you really think Marciano, at 5'9" or 5'10", and 185lbs - would be able to deal with a Lewis who stands 6'5" weighs around 245lbs and has a reach of 84"?!

Let's see, that is a 16" reach advantage, a 7" or 8" height advantage - and a 60lb. weight advantage for Lewis, you're right - Lewis doesn't stand a chance...

This one is an easy call my friend...

[Dark Destroyer]

Like i've said before Lennox is a great fighter. He is worthy enough to stand in the ring with any heavyweight of any era and trade blows. He can adapt to any style and there isn't many heavyweights who can do that well. He was very versatile for a big guy in alot of ways. His speed was amazing and his power was devastating. He was a thinking fighter and very tactical. When he fought Mike Tyson i noticed the sneaky advanced boxing techniques he was using like holding his hand under Mike's eye's then bringing up a crashing uppercut to his chin, not many big heavies think like Lennox did. The two times he lost should not have happened but thats what you get when your underestimate an opponent and don't train properly. The rematch of both of his losses showed how great he was because when he was focused he could beat anyone in front of him. Besides we have to remember that Lennox always won the big fights in front of him, when he had to be 100% he was 110%. I admit Lennox was abit sloppy coming into his fight against Klitschko but he still beat him. Lennox was getting like Roy towards the end, he was finding it hard to get motivated for mandatory challengers after been on top of the world for so long. He got out at the right time if you ask me. He has sacrificed alot for the sport and i'm glad he can now enjoy his retirement and spend his hard earned cash and live life to the max. He's healthy and still speaks like a true English Gentleman.

[orange]

whether he is great or not....i still don't like Lewis....he is a kind of boring fighter......

[Dark Destroyer]

whether he is great or not....i still don't like Lewis....he is a kind of boring fighter......

Boring? What makes him boring? He is sensible and well reserved in my opinion in the ring. He was what you call a intelligent fighter.

[whdempsey]

As for me saying Marciano would be a Cruiserweight, well, look it up, Rocky when in his prime, fought at 185lbs.!! Todays Heavyweights average around the 230lb mark. Marciano weighing in at 185lbs makes him a Cruiserweight in my book.

Marciano by the way, had the shortest reach of any Heavyweight Champ on record at just 68". Tyson at his peak would weigh 25 to 35lbs MORE than Marciano on basically the same frame, but Iron Mike has a longer reach. For that matter even Featherweight Champ Sandy Saddler had a 2 inch reach advantage on Marciano!

I have of course been speaking of Marciano and Lewis fighting in their primes, as I was with Lewis vs Tyson. Do you really think Marciano, at 5'9" or 5'10", and 185lbs - would be able to deal with a Lewis who stands 6'5" weighs around 245lbs and has a reach of 84"?!

Let's see, that is a 16" reach advantage, a 7" or 8" height advantage - and a 60lb. weight advantage for Lewis, you're right - Lewis doesn't stand a chance...

Now I never said Lewis doesn't stand a chance, and furthermore, I knew every stat you posted beforehand. Besides which, you sidestepped my overall argument about the cruiserweight class not existing. And to answer your queston "Do you really think Marciano, at 5'9" or 5'10", and 185lbs - would be able to deal with a Lewis who stands 6'5" weighs around 245lbs and has a reach of 84"?!" How should I say this? Yes. Yes, I do. A reach advantage is only worthwhile if you can keep your opponent on the outside. As soon as Marciano gets in, if he gets in, those long arms of Lewis are a disadvantage. If you disagree, don't, because you can review any tape of his and see that the only serious inside weapon he had was his uppercut.

Now, I never even said that I was picking Marciano over Lewis, but since you argued it, I figured I'd put up a fight. And I am saying that size is given way too much credit. The beef I had was with you calling Marciano a cruiserweight. Cruiserweight is a class that doesn't exist. These small heavyweights should be able to mix it up with the big boys, just like they did back in the day. You'll notice that the biggest fighters didn't dominate the heavyweight class to the same degree that they do today. And don't tell me they weren't there, because they were, and if I need to I can name names to prove it. The fact of the matter is that the addition of small heavyweights adds the right ****e to make a class great. Instead of having big ass clumsy oafs, you have tenacious punchers who are fast on their feets and throw in combination. Instead of John Ruiz, you could have Jack Dempsey.

Now, the problem with arguing for Marciano against Lewis is that Marciano never had to take on a giant-sized fighter. His management kept him away from the biggest guys. But if you need a better example of size being less than it's cracked up to be, why don't you look up Jack Dempsey's record? Don't forget Dempsey was a "cruiserweight" too. And yes, he was about three inches taller than Marciano, but we're not talking about a snappy, long-armed boxer here. We're talking about a guy who loved to mix it up on the inside. In-fighting over reach. That is, unless the fighter with superior reach can also move like the ****ens. Look up every guy who had a height, weight, and reach advantage over him, and then look at how long they lasted. Most of them didn't make it to the second round.

[whdempsey]

1) ali
foreman
lewis
tyson
frasier
norton
toney

Look, I love Toney as much as the next guy. Probably more. But at this stage in his heavyweight career, it doesn't make sense to rank him among the all-time greats.

[Soundtraveler]

Now I never said Lewis doesn't stand a chance, and furthermore, I knew every stat you posted beforehand. Besides which, you sidestepped my overall argument about the cruiserweight class not existing. And to answer your queston "Do you really think Marciano, at 5'9" or 5'10", and 185lbs - would be able to deal with a Lewis who stands 6'5" weighs around 245lbs and has a reach of 84"?!" How should I say this? Yes. Yes, I do. A reach advantage is only worthwhile if you can keep your opponent on the outside. As soon as Marciano gets in, if he gets in, those long arms of Lewis are a disadvantage. If you disagree, don't, because you can review any tape of his and see that the only serious inside weapon he had was his uppercut.

Now, I never even said that I was picking Marciano over Lewis, but since you argued it, I figured I'd put up a fight. And I am saying that size is given way too much credit. The beef I had was with you calling Marciano a cruiserweight. Cruiserweight is a class that doesn't exist. These small heavyweights should be able to mix it up with the big boys, just like they did back in the day. You'll notice that the biggest fighters didn't dominate the heavyweight class to the same degree that they do today. And don't tell me they weren't there, because they were, and if I need to I can name names to prove it. The fact of the matter is that the addition of small heavyweights adds the right ****e to make a class great. Instead of having big ass clumsy oafs, you have tenacious punchers who are fast on their feets and throw in combination. Instead of John Ruiz, you could have Jack Dempsey.

Now, the problem with arguing for Marciano against Lewis is that Marciano never had to take on a giant-sized fighter. His management kept him away from the biggest guys. But if you need a better example of size being less than it's cracked up to be, why don't you look up Jack Dempsey's record? Don't forget Dempsey was a "cruiserweight" too. And yes, he was about three inches taller than Marciano, but we're not talking about a snappy, long-armed boxer here. We're talking about a guy who loved to mix it up on the inside. In-fighting over reach. That is, unless the fighter with superior reach can also move like the ****ens. Look up every guy who had a height, weight, and reach advantage over him, and then look at how long they lasted. Most of them didn't make it to the second round.

Just because you don't think the Cruiserweight class exists doesn't make it disappear, because I announce plenty of them. It is recognized by the major sanctioning bodies, whether the fight fans approve or not is of no matter.

Second Dempsey fought in a time that you must admit did not feature the talent of boxers today, back then fighters who faced Demspey ranged from guys who were trying to make a dollar to feed themselves to drunks in mining towns! There were really only a handful of men who fought for a living and we all know it.

One fighter Demspey REFUSED to get into the ring with, was Sam "The Boston Tar Baby" Langford who fought against Sam McVea no less than 15 times between 1911 and 1920. Just one example, as I too can back my stuff up. Boxing is a sport of records, it's just too easy with the internet now, so I am not impressed by statements of "I'll name guys if I have to" save the macho stat finding internet nerd crap.

Let's talk boxing, if you think fighters with a 60lb. weight advantage belong in the same division, then YOU should get into the ring with a guy that much bigger than you and give it a go, I say you will have your mind changed for you in the 1st round!! LOL

[Soundtraveler]

I do agree with you that really big guys don't usually stay on top for long, just look at the "Brothers Klitchko", who I have NEVER been impressed with, they will both be history in a couple of years. Lennox Lewis however, was an exception to the rule as he dominated the division for about a decade. I would like to see smaller guys in there up to a point, but 60lbs. is just too much.

[Moon]

He had a chance to cement his legacy as a Definite top-tenner, but did not show-up on game day with Vitali. I am a true Lennox fan, but can accept some arguments that he's actually just outside the top-ten group, despite his amazing record of defences, Olympics etc.