..OVERRATED/UNDERRATED: Who Falls Where?...

[Jim Jeffries]

True, He does have a great resume of fighters who he fought. But my issue is this, If he wasn't as adored by the public as much as he is, would he have gotten those fights? Would the judges have not given the victory over Strum to set up the bhop fight? Winning once verse Mayorga really doesn't constitute you great enough to fight p4p champ flyod mayweather, when the guy that beat you 2c (SSM) has to fight guys like Collazo (no disrespect). ODLH has lost 3 of his last 5 fights and he's probably gonna fight Cotto? It gets rediculous & part of his resume win, lose, or draw is based on money and his popularity, not his fighting skill.

A highly disputed loss to a prime Shane Mosley, giving as good as he got for 8 rounds to a much bigger and stronger Hopkins, who is a natural LHW, and losing a split decision to the #1 p4p in the world shouldn't end anyone's career. Especially if that person is a 9 time world champ in 6 weight divisions and is the PPV King.

[wmute]

There are a lot of fighters that come to mind when I think of them being overrated. A lot when I think of boxers who are underrated. Then there are some that, I believe, people are confused about. That list, I happen to think, includes the following five boxers;

Bernard Hopkins
Joe Calzaghe
Paul Williams
Ricky Hatton
Antonio Margarito

Keep in mind, this is only my humble opinion, and it's based on the feeling I get from readers of this site, and this site only. Relatively speaking, of course.

BERNARD HOPKINS
EVIDENCE: He reigned as undisputed middleweight champion for roughly a decade. Controlled all the major titles and then some. He beat decent opposition in Antwun Echols, Robert Allen, Syd Vanderpool, William Joppy and Howard Eastman. He also beat both major challengers who stepped up in De La Hoya and Felix Trinidad. Glen Johnson is also a noticeable win. His only notable losses, disregarding the debut loss at the hands of a no-namer, are to Jones and Jermain Taylor, twice. Both atleast slightly disputed. He then moved up and beat Tarver for the TRUE world Lightheavyweight title and defended against the under-sized, but slick Winky Wright. Is set to face the true Super Middleweight champion in his upcoming megafight. Made 20 successful defenses of his Middleweight title.

VERDICT: Unless you're someone calling him the BEST middleweight of all time, it's hard to overrate him. No matter how hard to try to angle it, it's hard to call that OVERRATED. He has had a GREAT career.

Hopkins is a great in my book and most likely top5 MW all time. But

1) He was not undisputed champion for a decade, he was undisputed starting in 2001, hence he made 20 defenses of a paper belt, and had 7 or 8 defenses of THE championship. He DID however clean out 160 (a couple of times).

2) His loss to Jones is not disputed by any means. He lost fair and square. And priced himself out of a career high payday, IMO not because of "fear", but because of pride.

His losses to Taylor are not only disputed, but so Taylor being the one hurt at the end of the fight, and against a 40 year old Hopkins.

If one could block the fanboys noise, one would have noticed quite clearly by seeing gim in the ring, that Hopkins started slipping very possibly since the Joppy fight, or surely since the Allen fight

3) He did not win the TRUE LHW championship. That is a fuzzy notion, as it can be easiliy argued by lineage that Zsolt Erdei is the TRUE LHW champion,

I see him a bit too high on some p4p lists after his last few performances, but his place in history is that of a great IMO, and it's hard to dispute.

JOE CALZAGHE
EVIDENCE: Has had 20 PLUS defenses of his title at SMW. Is recognized as the true champion at 168. Undefeated since becoming a pro. Has wins over the likes of Chris Eubanks, Robin Reid, Omar Sheika, Sakio Bika, Jeff Lacy, Peter Manfredo and Mikkel Kessler. In fights with his best opposition, he seems to shine the brightest. Losing, at the MOST a combined 6 rounds in all three fights with Lacy, Manfredo and Kessler. Will be moving up to face TRUE LHW champion in Bernard Hopkins.

VERDICT: Hard, once again to overrate someone with those qualifications. Both he and Hopkins, essentially get the same wrap. Sometimes, it's not who you're doing the damage to, though. It's how well you do it. Both he and Hopkins box, WONDERFULLY. And they have for EXTENDED periods of time.

Clearly the most accomplished 168 fighter ever, although in head to head matchup I would pick a 168 Jones.

1) Again, he had 20 defenses of a paper belt, these are not defenses like Louis, Hagler or Monzon. These are defenses of beltholders, not of champions.

2) Hopkins is not quite the TRUE LHW champion

Calzaghe pays his not being american, but he has been on top enough that only idiots are left underrating him.

PAUL WILLIAMS
EVIDENCE: Truly his only notable wins come over Sharmba Mitchell and Antonio Margarito. One fighter, slightly faded and the other with his own reputation in question. He, nonetheless handled both well and even managed to stop Mitchell, a durable fighter. Has a portion of the welterweight title, though lacks the TRUE title. Has remained undefeated as a pro.

VERDICT: With the type of praise he gets, I'd consider him a BIT overrated. He has a great jab/overall offense. Nonetheless, he has lapses in his defense, is susceptible to a solid, sustained body attack and can get a bit lazy with his jab. He's also not beaten enough name fighters to have some claiming, he'll be the number one fighter in the world. Some making claims that he'd dominate the p4p champion. It's a bit early to claim it. Could happen, but it's still a bit early. I like the guy, I'm just saying.

With his size and workrate he could very well dominate 147. Unfortunately he is sloppy, not particularly fast and lacks power, so he is not going to be as dominant once he loses his freakish size advantage.
Overrated by some people but not too many.

RICKY HATTON
EVIDENCE: Has one loss, coming at the hands of the p4p best fighter in the world, Floyd Mayweather. Otherwise, has gone on to beat Vince Phillips, Ben Tackie, Carlos Maussa, Luis Collazo, and Jose Luis Castillo. He also has a career-defining win in beating Kostya Tszyu, who had reigned as UNIFIED, UNDISPUTED 140 pound champion for a rather long time. Handed him a stoppage defeat, in front of a sellout crowd in the M.E.N. Arena. 42 fights before tasting defeat.

VERDICT: He's a hard call. It depends on the fan you're asking. You ask one of his die-hard fans, then yes he is overrated. If you ask a normal fan, who is neither a hater, nor a nuthugger and you'll get the truth. He's a very solid, above-average fighter with a lot of will and heart. He can beat a lot of top 140 pounders, STILL, after his lone defeat.

Above average my ass.

Out of all the fighters mentioned in this list, he is the only one who actually grabbed his title in clear fashion from THE man in his division, a division in which he is still unbeaten.

He is severely underrated, basically for not being american and for losing to the greatest fighter in the sport of boxing. Let's not forget that he is the only fighter who made the p4p king actually fight instead of easily potshotting his way to victory.

ANTONIO MARGARITO
EVIDENCE: Three of his losses came relativelt early in his career, before he buckled down and stay commited to the sport. Had a stretch of 20 wins before losing his 4th fight due to a cut caused by a headbutt. Last loss was to Paul Williams. Has wins over Andrew Lewis, Kermit Cintron, Joshua Clottey and Golden Johnson. Held a piece of the welterweight title for close to 10 fights. (His second-to-last loss was at 154 to Santos, involving the cut situation.)

VERDICT: Honestly, he is overrated. Due to two major things. For one, he has fans but his numbers are limited. His fans are diehard and rabid. When only a select group focuses on you and tries to show you the attention they feel you deserve, they tend to go a bit overboard. Secondly, he's not often given the chances that he deserves. Because even with 5 losses, he's a challenge for anyone at 147. If he and Cotto get by their next challenges, we'll see where he truly belongs.

I think he is vastly overrated by a few, and slightly underrated by many.

On one hand you get his diehard mex supporters who swear he is the most feared man in the welterweight division and the second coming of JC. (They are way off, but they are not many)

On the other hand you have many, maybe most posters who readily downgrade anything he achieved/achieves. IMO they are closer to the target (as criticism often happens to be), but there are so many of them that they offset the few Viva Mexico.

There are plenty more I could get into. De La Hoya, Mayweather, Cotto, Pavlik, Taylor. But I wont. For one reason or another. Some are just foolish to question, some are going to SOONER rather then later shed more light on the issue then I could. Nonetheless; discuss, disagree, debate.

The most interesting name up there is Jermain Taylor, who seems to lost it. This comes from someone who never thought he had it to begin with, but I am puzzled at the way his career went. Maybe he has more left, maybe not. We'll see...

Mayweather is the p4p king by far, and the only argument left is his place in history, which is too early to assess with preicision. We need to see who he will fight and the careers of his future and past opponents wind down to quite grasp it.

Oscar is who he is: a HOF fighter with losses and controversial fights, but he has the best resume in boxing, not just today but in the past 20 years, some losses and some close fights are due with that type of opposition.

Pavlik and Cotto are both on positive rolls. Time will tell if they are HOF stuff, great stuff or just very good stuff. Clearly way to early to judge them.

[Ryn0]

Hopkins is a great in my book and most likely top5 MW all time. But

1) He was not undisputed champion for a decade, he was undisputed starting in 2001, hence he made 20 defenses of a paper belt, and had 7 or 8 defenses of THE championship. He DID however clean out 160 (a couple of times).

2) His loss to Jones is not disputed by any means. He lost fair and square. And priced himself out of a career high payday, IMO not because of "fear", but because of pride.

His losses to Taylor are not only disputed, but so Taylor being the one hurt at the end of the fight, and against a 40 year old Hopkins.

If one could block the fanboys noise, one would have noticed quite clearly by seeing gim in the ring, that Hopkins started slipping very possibly since the Joppy fight, or surely since the Allen fight

3) He did not win the TRUE LHW championship. That is a fuzzy notion, as it can be easiliy argued by lineage that Zsolt Erdei is the TRUE LHW champion,

I see him a bit too high on some p4p lists after his last few performances, but his place in history is that of a great IMO, and it's hard to dispute.




Clearly the most accomplished 168 fighter ever, although in head to head matchup I would pick a 168 Jones.

1) Again, he had 20 defenses of a paper belt, these are not defenses like Louis, Hagler or Monzon. These are defenses of beltholders, not of champions.

2) Hopkins is not quite the TRUE LHW champion

Calzaghe pays his not being american, but he has been on top enough that only idiots are left underrating him.



With his size and workrate he could very well dominate 147. Unfortunately he is sloppy, not particularly fast and lacks power, so he is not going to be as dominant once he loses his freakish size advantage.
Overrated by some people but not too many.



Above average my ass.

Out of all the fighters mentioned in this list, he is the only one who actually grabbed his title in clear fashion from THE man in his division, a division in which he is still unbeaten.

He is severely underrated, basically for not being american and for losing to the greatest fighter in the sport of boxing. Let's not forget that he is the only fighter who made the p4p king actually fight instead of easily potshotting his way to victory.



I think he is vastly overrated by a few, and slightly underrated by many.

On one hand you get his diehard mex supporters who swear he is the most feared man in the welterweight division and the second coming of JC. (They are way off, but they are not many)

On the other hand you have many, maybe most posters who readily downgrade anything he achieved/achieves. IMO they are closer to the target (as criticism often happens to be), but there are so many of them that they offset the few Viva Mexico.



The most interesting name up there is Jermain Taylor, who seems to lost it. This comes from someone who never thought he had it to begin with, but I am puzzled at the way his career went. Maybe he has more left, maybe not. We'll see...

Mayweather is the p4p king by far, and the only argument left is his place in history, which is too early to assess with preicision. We need to see who he will fight and the careers of his future and past opponents wind down to quite grasp it.

Oscar is who he is: a HOF fighter with losses and controversial fights, but he has the best resume in boxing, not just today but in the past 20 years, some losses and some close fights are due with that type of opposition.

Pavlik and Cotto are both on positive rolls. Time will tell if they are HOF stuff, great stuff or just very good stuff. Clearly way to early to judge them.

You hit it pretty much spot on. great post, I would pick a 168 jones over calzaghe but only just

[Rane-Ex54]

A highly disputed loss to a prime Shane Mosley, giving as good as he got for 8 rounds to a much bigger and stronger Hopkins, who is a natural LHW, and losing a split decision to the #1 p4p in the world shouldn't end anyone's career. Especially if that person is a 9 time world champ in 6 weight divisions and is the PPV King.

Not saying it should end his career, but when you lose 3 out of your last 5, you shouldn't be given the gift of fighting someone like Cotto. Other people have earned that right more. You can't keep losing fights and fighting the best. Plus a SD verse Mayweather was a bit of a joke. Do you really think it should have been a SD?? Not sure why you even mentioned the Hopkins fight

[THe TRiNiTY]

Hopkins is a great in my book and most likely top5 MW all time. But

1) He was not undisputed champion for a decade, he was undisputed starting in 2001, hence he made 20 defenses of a paper belt, and had 7 or 8 defenses of THE championship. He DID however clean out 160 (a couple of times).

2) His loss to Jones is not disputed by any means. He lost fair and square. And priced himself out of a career high payday, IMO not because of "fear", but because of pride.

His losses to Taylor are not only disputed, but so Taylor being the one hurt at the end of the fight, and against a 40 year old Hopkins.

If one could block the fanboys noise, one would have noticed quite clearly by seeing gim in the ring, that Hopkins started slipping very possibly since the Joppy fight, or surely since the Allen fight

3) He did not win the TRUE LHW championship. That is a fuzzy notion, as it can be easiliy argued by lineage that Zsolt Erdei is the TRUE LHW champion,

I see him a bit too high on some p4p lists after his last few performances, but his place in history is that of a great IMO, and it's hard to dispute.




Clearly the most accomplished 168 fighter ever, although in head to head matchup I would pick a 168 Jones.

1) Again, he had 20 defenses of a paper belt, these are not defenses like Louis, Hagler or Monzon. These are defenses of beltholders, not of champions.

2) Hopkins is not quite the TRUE LHW champion

Calzaghe pays his not being american, but he has been on top enough that only idiots are left underrating him.



With his size and workrate he could very well dominate 147. Unfortunately he is sloppy, not particularly fast and lacks power, so he is not going to be as dominant once he loses his freakish size advantage.
Overrated by some people but not too many.



Above average my ass.

Out of all the fighters mentioned in this list, he is the only one who actually grabbed his title in clear fashion from THE man in his division, a division in which he is still unbeaten.

He is severely underrated, basically for not being american and for losing to the greatest fighter in the sport of boxing. Let's not forget that he is the only fighter who made the p4p king actually fight instead of easily potshotting his way to victory.



I think he is vastly overrated by a few, and slightly underrated by many.

On one hand you get his diehard mex supporters who swear he is the most feared man in the welterweight division and the second coming of JC. (They are way off, but they are not many)

On the other hand you have many, maybe most posters who readily downgrade anything he achieved/achieves. IMO they are closer to the target (as criticism often happens to be), but there are so many of them that they offset the few Viva Mexico.



The most interesting name up there is Jermain Taylor, who seems to lost it. This comes from someone who never thought he had it to begin with, but I am puzzled at the way his career went. Maybe he has more left, maybe not. We'll see...

Mayweather is the p4p king by far, and the only argument left is his place in history, which is too early to assess with preicision. We need to see who he will fight and the careers of his future and past opponents wind down to quite grasp it.

Oscar is who he is: a HOF fighter with losses and controversial fights, but he has the best resume in boxing, not just today but in the past 20 years, some losses and some close fights are due with that type of opposition.

Pavlik and Cotto are both on positive rolls. Time will tell if they are HOF stuff, great stuff or just very good stuff. Clearly way to early to judge them.

First of all, with your accessment of Hatton. He has had 2 MAJOR steps up, in Kostya Tszyu (slightly faded) and Mayweather. He's 1-1.

Also, he's not the only fighter to have won his title clearly. Bernard Hopkins gained essentially total control of the middleweight division when he unified the titles against Tito Trinidad. I see no one dis*****g who the winner should be.

The reason I mentioned trinket titles (me being someone who hevaily supports The Ring championship, especially on here) is because it becomes extremely idiotic to assume it's any less difficult to defend a title, depending on it's significance. If the fighter believes he's champion, the idea of defending it is the same. He still trains, he still fights, still has a title on the line and still has all of it to deal with. It takes a level of excellence to ge through all of this. Hence, I don't feel the need to try and take away from an accomplishment.

By the way, Hopkins won the TRUE title, from Tarver who regained it from Johnson, after taking it from Jones in the first place. I don't care what titles whoever else has. He has a DIRECT line from Jones to him. He's the champion. I also didn't say his loss to Jones was disputed, I said BOTH, as in both fights with Jermain Taylor, were disputed. otherwise, I would have specified it was both FIGHTERS. I apologize for the mix up. For the record, the Jones fight was close, anyway. But Hopkins lost.

With all that out of the way, we seem to agree on quite a bit and I can understand your personal viewpoint on certain areas. Thanks for the balanced response.

[Jim Jeffries]

Not saying it should end his career, but when you lose 3 out of your last 5, you shouldn't be given the gift of fighting someone like Cotto. Other people have earned that right more. You can't keep losing fights and fighting the best. Plus a SD verse Mayweather was a bit of a joke. Do you really think it should have been a SD?? Not sure why you even mentioned the Hopkins fight

You mention it as one of his losses, I thought he put on a great showing against a much bigger, stronger oponent, one of the ATGs at middleweight (30 pounds above where DLH first won a title) at that.

Who else is Cotto supposed to fight? Paul Williams, who has only 4 wins over top 50 opponents? Floyd has said several times he won't fight him. Cintron and Margarito seem to be headed for a fight. Who else is there at WW?

[Njord777]

We all just go with the information we have. We rate fighters based on their career, right? But every active fighter is still writing that career in the history books. It may seem obvious, but what I mean is that we sometimes, in our effort to judge where boxers stand in history, use too much recent information. Fans have a tendency to forget the past, fall in love with the present, and forget there's a future...

Example? Kelly Pavlik. Right now I think he deserves respect, and a place on the lists of current solid fighters for knocking out the undefeated middleweight champion of the world. That said, he had a great year...but people are emphasizing how amazing he's going to be based on two or three performances. A career is not three fights long. How do we know where he's going to be in a year or two? I've heard some crazy speculations...I rate him currently but I have questions about his future- some of you think he's amazing. In terms of this thread he's "overrated".

Now, my second example might seem crazy but- I think, currently, a fighter like Shane Mosley is "underrated". Why? Because he lost to Miguel Cotto, and that fact as put him under the radar for half this forum. We're forgetting he still has a pretty resume, overall, and at one point- this is fact- had the highest KO percentage in the history of the sport for a champion. No longer...but still. Overall, Shane looked decent enough against Cotto and has a good record with a year or two left to cement his place as one of the sport's solid boxers.

So, because of 2007 I think Kelly Pavlik is seen as a middleweight god to some; and that's premature. Shane Mosley is washed up and no longer an interesting element at 147 for others; and I think that's also premature. The problem is we want so badly to predict whose the next Hearns (they're yelling Williams) or who might be the next heavyweight king (still looking) that we use too many recent cues. A fighter can have a bad fight and bounce back. He can also have an amazing performance only to show it was a good style match-up for him and not a display of pure talent.

Look at what happened to Roy Jones, Jr. - nobody predicted his downfall at that moment. He'd recently stepped up to heavyweight successfully and- even if the first fight with Tarver didn't look amazing for him- most thought he was just going to banish the performance as a fluke...a la Lewis-Rahman II. That's forever impacted his place in history. If Tarver never happened and Jones had learned to compensate for any aging that had occured, he might have learned to adapt and reel off some solid wins, a few journeymen fights in between to look impressive, and give up the sport smelling like roses.

Over-rated, Under-rated...when it comes down to it, with current boxers, it's all premature. Look at Manny Pacquioa...hypothetically if Marquez knocks him out- then they rematch and it happens again..brutal KO's- Manny's reputation will take a serious hit. People will forget the Morales and Barrera fight and look at where he stands at that moment. Where does he go from there?

We never know what's going to happen. Pavlik could move up to super-middlweight and stink up the joint. Get knocked out. Bye-Bye one time champion. Mayweather could move back down and look like a powerhouse, have the casual fan loving him like no other...goodbye old, occasionaly spotty, reputation.

Of course we're going to rate a fighter based on what they do but the way we make subtle inferences about what's to come and what it means...and sometimes think of it as fact...that's silly.

[THe TRiNiTY]

We all just go with the information we have. We rate fighters based on their career, right? But every active fighter is still writing that career in the history books. It may seem obvious, but what I mean is that we sometimes, in our effort to judge where boxers stand in history, use too much recent information. Fans have a tendency to forget the past, fall in love with the present, and forget there's a future...

Example? Kelly Pavlik. Right now I think he deserves respect, and a place on the lists of current solid fighters for knocking out the undefeated middleweight champion of the world. That said, he had a great year...but people are emphasizing how amazing he's going to be based on two or three performances. A career is not three fights long. How do we know where he's going to be in a year or two? I've heard some crazy speculations...I rate him currently but I have questions about his future- some of you think he's amazing. In terms of this thread he's "overrated".

Now, my second example might seem crazy but- I think, currently, a fighter like Shane Mosley is "underrated". Why? Because he lost to Miguel Cotto, and that fact as put him under the radar for half this forum. We're forgetting he still has a pretty resume, overall, and at one point- this is fact- had the highest KO percentage in the history of the sport for a champion. No longer...but still. Overall, Shane looked decent enough against Cotto and has a good record with a year or two left to cement his place as one of the sport's solid boxers.

So, because of 2007 I think Kelly Pavlik is seen as a middleweight god to some; and that's premature. Shane Mosley is washed up and no longer an interesting element at 147 for others; and I think that's also premature. The problem is we want so badly to predict whose the next Hearns (they're yelling Williams) or who might be the next heavyweight king (still looking) that we use too many recent cues. A fighter can have a bad fight and bounce back. He can also have an amazing performance only to show it was a good style match-up for him and not a display of pure talent.

Look at what happened to Roy Jones, Jr. - nobody predicted his downfall at that moment. He'd recently stepped up to heavyweight successfully and- even if the first fight with Tarver didn't look amazing for him- most thought he was just going to banish the performance as a fluke...a la Lewis-Rahman II. That's forever impacted his place in history. If Tarver never happened and Jones had learned to compensate for any aging that had occured, he might have learned to adapt and reel off some solid wins, a few journeymen fights in between to look impressive, and give up the sport smelling like roses.

Over-rated, Under-rated...when it comes down to it, with current boxers, it's all premature. Look at Manny Pacquioa...hypothetically if Marquez knocks him out- then they rematch and it happens again..brutal KO's- Manny's reputation will take a serious hit. People will forget the Morales and Barrera fight and look at where he stands at that moment. Where does he go from there?

We never know what's going to happen. Pavlik could move up to super-middlweight and stink up the joint. Get knocked out. Bye-Bye one time champion. Mayweather could move back down and look like a powerhouse, have the casual fan loving him like no other...goodbye old, occasionaly spotty, reputation.

Of course we're going to rate a fighter based on what they do but the way we make subtle inferences about what's to come and what it means...and sometimes think of it as fact...that's silly.

I went with just has happened. Upside/future has a bearing on younger fighters, but I rarely, if ever, factored that in. I see what you're saying, but I think I was pretty fair and balanced.

[Rane-Ex54]

You mention it as one of his losses, I thought he put on a great showing against a much bigger, stronger oponent, one of the ATGs at middleweight (30 pounds above where DLH first won a title) at that.

Who else is Cotto supposed to fight? Paul Williams, who has only 4 wins over top 50 opponents? Floyd has said several times he won't fight him. Cintron and Margarito seem to be headed for a fight. Who else is there at WW?

Well seeing ODHL isn't even a welterweight and hasn't for along time now, Cotto can face Cintron, Williams, Clottey, Margarito, Berto, Collazo. Its a pretty deep division.

Thing is I don't think ODLH deserves a shot, but I still do want to see the ODLH / Cotto fight happen, but for one reason only. Well actually 2. 1) Seeing Oscar get schooled & 2) Giving Cotto the public exposure so Mayweather will finally fight him.

[Jim Jeffries]

Well seeing ODHL isn't even a welterweight and hasn't for along time now, Cotto can face Cintron, Williams, Clottey, Margarito, Berto, Collazo. Its a pretty deep division.

Thing is I don't think ODLH deserves a shot, but I still do want to see the ODLH / Cotto fight happen, but for one reason only. Well actually 2. 1) Seeing Oscar get schooled & 2) Giving Cotto the public exposure so Mayweather will finally fight him.

Oscar's best weight was WW, he kept going up in weight to make history.

If Mayweather is on a 2 year break, who else besides Oscar is going to give Cotto a career high payday, besides Oscar? Not to mention the extra money he would make fighting Floyd down the road should he beat DLH.

A 34 year old DLH, with one fight in 2 1/2 years fought the best p4p fighter in the world to a split decision. Oscar is a future hall of famer that will go down as a top 40 ATG, of course he deserves to fight Cotto.