Seriously - Is Calzaghe the greatest Super Middleweight of all time?

[Migs]

i would like him too see kick mirandas ass, or fighting Pavlik

There's no reason for him to fight Pavlik. He would win no contest. The way I see it, if Jermaine Taylor, who doesn't have the boxing skills that Calzaghe posesses, gave Pavlik that kinda trouble in the second round of that fight, there is no way Kelly stops Calzaghe then. Besides Kessler's style looks similar to Pavlik's anyway and he wasn't able to close the deal.

[Likely_Lad]

Does that make him an ATG. I mean some of the best SMW's off all time aren't even ATG's themselves even though they ARE great. I don't think Cal is an all timer just yet, you have to do ALOT to get to that status.

I think its very easy to compare greats of the past against greats of today but they are totally different era's, boxers back in the day often fought two or three times a month against the same set of fighters.

If we judge Calzaghe purely against the modern era then we have to look at a number of factors.

1. Number of defences
2. Standard of opponents
3. How that compares against his peers.

21 defences and to remain unbeaten.
Half those defences were against average opponents.
Half the defences were against former or current World Champions.
He has cleared out and won every major belt in that division.

Who else in the modern age has come close, equalled or surpassed his reign? Hopkins or Jones. Then there are fighters who hopped weights like Mayweather or Toney etc.

Calzaghe certainly deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as those fighters.

Therefore he will have to be remembered as an ATG. IMO

[Wiley Hyena]

You could be right, as I said there may have been a minimal difference in hand speed. I will concede that I thought Jones was perhaps the fastest puncher I had seen for some time but Calzaghe is certainly no slouch.

Unfortunately my opinion of Jones went down with his recent performances and the drug allegations.

And here are those drug allegations:

ROY JONES JR. IS IN DENIAL
By Elisa Harrison
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2004

MIAMI, FLA.---I tried very hard to contain myself and not pen my thoughts on the "shocking" loss Roy Jones suffered at the hands of Antonio "Magic Man" Tarver. I thought I had managed to stay out of it, until Friday night that is, when I saw a televised interview of Roy Jones Jr. taped upon arrival in his hometown of Pensacola, Florida. That did it, enough is enough... Roy, you are in serious denial.
Roy Jones Jr. ... one of boxing's most talented fighters, loved and hated in equal portions by the sweet science's fans, pound for pound king to some, "Reluctant" Roy to others; the man who could do it all and do it well, that is until he met Antonio "Magic Man' Tarver...

Actually that may not be a true statement, I believe Jones' problems began long before he ever set foot in the ring against Mr. Tarver. Let's rewind to July 18, 2003, shall we?

On that date Bragging Rights Corner.com in conjunction with Doghouseboxing.com posted an interview by Aladdin Freeman with Richard Hall as Hall was preparing to meet Julian "Mr. KO" Letterlough.

Hall stated during said interview that Jones had tested positive for anabolic steroids use when the two met back in May of 2000. (Hall neglected to tell Mr. Freeman that he too had tested positive, but his omission didn't go unnoticed or unmentioned when Mr. Freeman and his editor went on a quest for the truth regarding this bit of disturbing news). The events that followed Hall's statement are now part of boxing history.

Braggingrightscorner.com was accused of posting rumors and gossip, even Jones' trainer Alton Merkerson and Jones' adviser Brad Jacobs came to the rescue but their attempts at damage control couldn't derail the truth. And the truth is that Roy Jones Jr. through his attorney admitted to the Indiana Boxing Commission that he had used steroids prior to this fight. Pursuant to his admission Roy agreed to certain terms and conditions dictated by the Indiana Boxing Commission regarding the episode. (Those of you who doubt internet reporting, please refer to The Ring magazine's January 2004 issue which acknowledges and credits Aladdin Freeman for the report).

Shortly after Mr. Freeman's story, the BALCO lab story broke BIG, implicating many high profile figures in the world of sports. The lab was shut down and a federal probe is ongoing. As a refresher, BALCO was manufacturing a so called designer drug designed to mask the use of anabolic steroids. While other 'chemists' may achieve similar results in the future, for the time being at least, things have become a bit hairy for some athletes, and the world of boxing whispered the names of Shane Mosley and Roy Jones, Jr. as the two who would probably suffer the most from the demise of the BALCO lab.

Shane Mosley has fought twice since the BALCO scandal which broke in September 2003, looking horrible against Oscar de la Hoya, (September 2003), (although he was gifted the decision), and even worst against Ronald "Winky" Wright, (March of 2004), (who wouldn't be denied the decision).

Roy Jones, Jr.'s first performance following the BALCO debacle was against Antonio "Magic Man" Tarver in November of 2003. Do you remember how Roy looked then? To put it in the words of Joe Calzaghe, he looked... "human for a change."

I was shocked to see Jones looking spent and seemingly out of it in his corner in between rounds, being pummeled by Tarver as he laid against the ropes for a great part of the fight. The bout was close and of course the decision went to Jones Jr. But sometimes in winning, you lose just as much, and Roy lost a lot of credibility here. So what did Roy do? He began to make excuses... ranking in first place was the excuse about having had to come down in weight from the November fight against John Ruiz -never mind that he had six months in which to lose 18 pounds... Heck, I know guys who do that in a fraction of the time, for a whole lot less money and still manage to win fights. He made excuses about other things too, but Antonio Tarver wasn't having any of it.

Team Tarver pressed the issue and a rematch was agreed to. Roy's pride was on the line; he even said the second time around would be more than personal. This rematch was about Roy Jones Jr. having to save face, plain and simple.

The encore was scheduled for May 15, 2004, four years and two days following the Richard Hall fight. Oddly enough, Richard Hall was scheduled to fight in the Jones-Tarver 2 undercard. (In case you are wondering, he got knocked out in four rounds).

In what will go down as a classic moment, Tarver delivered the first blow of the night before the timekeeper had a chance to ring the opening bell. As referee Jay Nady asks the two combatants if they have any questions, loudly and unequivocally the cool as a cucumber Antonio Tarver replies: "Yeah, I have a question... Are you going to have any excuses tonight, Roy?" Ouch!

Roy goes out and as a shell of his old self steals the first round from a cautious, somewhat hesitant Tarver. He scored with flurries, but neither the power nor the speed are evident. He wins the round nevertheless.

Things change quickly in the next stanza, possibly prompted by the exchange between Tarver and his trainer Buddy McGirt. Following the first round McGirt tells Tarver that he is giving Roy too much respect, Tarver replies don't use that word around here, and McGirt ends it by saying, "then go and get yours."

Unlike Vernon Forrest who received a similar message against Mayorga but got the beatdown of a lifetime instead of respect, Antonio Tarver stalked his man, and counterpunching off a Jones right to his chest, Tonio misses with a right cross, then delivers a crushing left hook to the jaw of Mr. Pound for Pound No More... Only 1:44 seconds had transpired in the round, and Roy was flat on his back, attempting to get up, only to fall on his face, attempting to get up again, beating the count but clearly hurt. Referee Nady waved him off, getting no argument from Jones or his corner, and we watched in disbelief as the untouchable Roy Jones Jr. struggled to make it to his corner, on very unsteady legs, defeated soundly and in embarrassing fashion by Antonio 'Magic Man' Tarver.

Was Tarver's blow that devastating? Before you answer the question, please feel free to revise Tarver's record here: http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=014043
Antonio Tarver is not a heavy puncher; he has only knocked out six fighters prior to Jones, (I'm not including TKOs). But wait, didn't Roy go twelve grueling rounds with Tarver just six months prior, receiving far more punishment? Just for the record there was an outrageously low total of 27 punches exchanged in the rematch. Didn't Roy go twelve rounds with John Ruiz who outweighed him by 30 pounds, and who, say what you will about him, can truly ****, a bout in which he defeated Ruiz soundly?

In case you are wondering what is my point, my point is that something is wrong with this picture. A super human fighter, an untouchable super champion who has flashed speed, power and tremendous ring generalship throughout his career all of a sudden can't take a punch from a man who is not known for his punching power?? I don't know about you, and with no disrespect intended for Antonio Tarver, I am not buying it. Something has happened to Roy Jones, Jr., let's cut the crap and be real.

I recall Manny Steward's pre-fight comments about Roy losing weight the right way this time, having a conditioning trainer, etc, etc. He spoke as if Jones was new to the game. Steward's comments run second to his laughter evoking high praise of heavyweight Ty Fields. Everyone is playing up to Tarver's punch as if it had been delivered in unisom by Tarver and Mike Tyson in his prime, puhleeze, gimme a break!

Roy's comments as he arrived in Pensacola were disgraceful. They brought to mind the words of Floyd Mayweather, Jr. who as a guest on ESPN2 FNF earlier in the evening said -and I paraphrase- Roy should take his hat off to Tarver and move on. Coming from a guy who is accused of being immature and egotistic, Floyd Jr.'s advise couldn't be more on target.

During the Pensacola interview Roy claimed that Tarver's left hook from hell was a lucky punch; he said nobody has really beaten him, he went on and on and on, posturing, very defensive and making a total fool of himself. I was truly disappointed as flashbacks of a classy Tito Trinidad after his obliteration at the hands of Bernard Hopkins came to mind.

Roy Jones Jr. needs to dig deep within and recognize that for some reason, and he should know the reason better than any of us, he has been beaten, soundly too. Roy Jones Jr. is in serious denial. Roy Jones Jr. is now simply.... human.

Copyright 2006 by BlackAthlete.net, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

[Likely_Lad]

And here are those drug allegations:

ROY JONES JR. IS IN DENIAL
By Elisa Harrison
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2004

MIAMI, FLA.---I tried very hard to contain myself and not pen my thoughts on the "shocking" loss Roy Jones suffered at the hands of Antonio "Magic Man" Tarver. I thought I had managed to stay out of it, until Friday night that is, when I saw a televised interview of Roy Jones Jr. taped upon arrival in his hometown of Pensacola, Florida. That did it, enough is enough... Roy, you are in serious denial.
Roy Jones Jr. ... one of boxing's most talented fighters, loved and hated in equal portions by the sweet science's fans, pound for pound king to some, "Reluctant" Roy to others; the man who could do it all and do it well, that is until he met Antonio "Magic Man' Tarver...

Actually that may not be a true statement, I believe Jones' problems began long before he ever set foot in the ring against Mr. Tarver. Let's rewind to July 18, 2003, shall we?

On that date Bragging Rights Corner.com in conjunction with Doghouseboxing.com posted an interview by Aladdin Freeman with Richard Hall as Hall was preparing to meet Julian "Mr. KO" Letterlough.

Hall stated during said interview that Jones had tested positive for anabolic steroids use when the two met back in May of 2000. (Hall neglected to tell Mr. Freeman that he too had tested positive, but his omission didn't go unnoticed or unmentioned when Mr. Freeman and his editor went on a quest for the truth regarding this bit of disturbing news). The events that followed Hall's statement are now part of boxing history.

Braggingrightscorner.com was accused of posting rumors and gossip, even Jones' trainer Alton Merkerson and Jones' adviser Brad Jacobs came to the rescue but their attempts at damage control couldn't derail the truth. And the truth is that Roy Jones Jr. through his attorney admitted to the Indiana Boxing Commission that he had used steroids prior to this fight. Pursuant to his admission Roy agreed to certain terms and conditions dictated by the Indiana Boxing Commission regarding the episode. (Those of you who doubt internet reporting, please refer to The Ring magazine's January 2004 issue which acknowledges and credits Aladdin Freeman for the report).

Shortly after Mr. Freeman's story, the BALCO lab story broke BIG, implicating many high profile figures in the world of sports. The lab was shut down and a federal probe is ongoing. As a refresher, BALCO was manufacturing a so called designer drug designed to mask the use of anabolic steroids. While other 'chemists' may achieve similar results in the future, for the time being at least, things have become a bit hairy for some athletes, and the world of boxing whispered the names of Shane Mosley and Roy Jones, Jr. as the two who would probably suffer the most from the demise of the BALCO lab.

Shane Mosley has fought twice since the BALCO scandal which broke in September 2003, looking horrible against Oscar de la Hoya, (September 2003), (although he was gifted the decision), and even worst against Ronald "Winky" Wright, (March of 2004), (who wouldn't be denied the decision).

Roy Jones, Jr.'s first performance following the BALCO debacle was against Antonio "Magic Man" Tarver in November of 2003. Do you remember how Roy looked then? To put it in the words of Joe Calzaghe, he looked... "human for a change."

I was shocked to see Jones looking spent and seemingly out of it in his corner in between rounds, being pummeled by Tarver as he laid against the ropes for a great part of the fight. The bout was close and of course the decision went to Jones Jr. But sometimes in winning, you lose just as much, and Roy lost a lot of credibility here. So what did Roy do? He began to make excuses... ranking in first place was the excuse about having had to come down in weight from the November fight against John Ruiz -never mind that he had six months in which to lose 18 pounds... Heck, I know guys who do that in a fraction of the time, for a whole lot less money and still manage to win fights. He made excuses about other things too, but Antonio Tarver wasn't having any of it.

Team Tarver pressed the issue and a rematch was agreed to. Roy's pride was on the line; he even said the second time around would be more than personal. This rematch was about Roy Jones Jr. having to save face, plain and simple.

The encore was scheduled for May 15, 2004, four years and two days following the Richard Hall fight. Oddly enough, Richard Hall was scheduled to fight in the Jones-Tarver 2 undercard. (In case you are wondering, he got knocked out in four rounds).

In what will go down as a classic moment, Tarver delivered the first blow of the night before the timekeeper had a chance to ring the opening bell. As referee Jay Nady asks the two combatants if they have any questions, loudly and unequivocally the cool as a cucumber Antonio Tarver replies: "Yeah, I have a question... Are you going to have any excuses tonight, Roy?" Ouch!

Roy goes out and as a shell of his old self steals the first round from a cautious, somewhat hesitant Tarver. He scored with flurries, but neither the power nor the speed are evident. He wins the round nevertheless.

Things change quickly in the next stanza, possibly prompted by the exchange between Tarver and his trainer Buddy McGirt. Following the first round McGirt tells Tarver that he is giving Roy too much respect, Tarver replies don't use that word around here, and McGirt ends it by saying, "then go and get yours."

Unlike Vernon Forrest who received a similar message against Mayorga but got the beatdown of a lifetime instead of respect, Antonio Tarver stalked his man, and counterpunching off a Jones right to his chest, Tonio misses with a right cross, then delivers a crushing left hook to the jaw of Mr. Pound for Pound No More... Only 1:44 seconds had transpired in the round, and Roy was flat on his back, attempting to get up, only to fall on his face, attempting to get up again, beating the count but clearly hurt. Referee Nady waved him off, getting no argument from Jones or his corner, and we watched in disbelief as the untouchable Roy Jones Jr. struggled to make it to his corner, on very unsteady legs, defeated soundly and in embarrassing fashion by Antonio 'Magic Man' Tarver.

Was Tarver's blow that devastating? Before you answer the question, please feel free to revise Tarver's record here: http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=014043
Antonio Tarver is not a heavy puncher; he has only knocked out six fighters prior to Jones, (I'm not including TKOs). But wait, didn't Roy go twelve grueling rounds with Tarver just six months prior, receiving far more punishment? Just for the record there was an outrageously low total of 27 punches exchanged in the rematch. Didn't Roy go twelve rounds with John Ruiz who outweighed him by 30 pounds, and who, say what you will about him, can truly ****, a bout in which he defeated Ruiz soundly?

In case you are wondering what is my point, my point is that something is wrong with this picture. A super human fighter, an untouchable super champion who has flashed speed, power and tremendous ring generalship throughout his career all of a sudden can't take a punch from a man who is not known for his punching power?? I don't know about you, and with no disrespect intended for Antonio Tarver, I am not buying it. Something has happened to Roy Jones, Jr., let's cut the crap and be real.

I recall Manny Steward's pre-fight comments about Roy losing weight the right way this time, having a conditioning trainer, etc, etc. He spoke as if Jones was new to the game. Steward's comments run second to his laughter evoking high praise of heavyweight Ty Fields. Everyone is playing up to Tarver's punch as if it had been delivered in unisom by Tarver and Mike Tyson in his prime, puhleeze, gimme a break!

Roy's comments as he arrived in Pensacola were disgraceful. They brought to mind the words of Floyd Mayweather, Jr. who as a guest on ESPN2 FNF earlier in the evening said -and I paraphrase- Roy should take his hat off to Tarver and move on. Coming from a guy who is accused of being immature and egotistic, Floyd Jr.'s advise couldn't be more on target.

During the Pensacola interview Roy claimed that Tarver's left hook from hell was a lucky punch; he said nobody has really beaten him, he went on and on and on, posturing, very defensive and making a total fool of himself. I was truly disappointed as flashbacks of a classy Tito Trinidad after his obliteration at the hands of Bernard Hopkins came to mind.

Roy Jones Jr. needs to dig deep within and recognize that for some reason, and he should know the reason better than any of us, he has been beaten, soundly too. Roy Jones Jr. is in serious denial. Roy Jones Jr. is now simply.... human.

Copyright 2006 by BlackAthlete.net, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

What bearing do you think this has on the legacy of Roy Jones???

[Celtic_Warrior]

What bearing do you think this has on the legacy of Roy Jones???

I don't know how much of this truth or fiction therefore I wont comment but...I still cannot see even a prime Roy Jones dominating a prime Calzaghe.

Calzaghe before his well documented hand problems was a real ****er too and that fight in my opinion could have swung either way.

Calzaghe work rate would have troubled Jones whilst Jones's timing would have troubled JC.

[eazy_mas]

I don't know how much of this truth or fiction therefore I wont comment but...I still cannot see even a prime Roy Jones dominating a prime Calzaghe.

Calzaghe before his well documented hand problems was a real ****er too and that fight in my opinion could have swung either way.

Calzaghe work rate would have troubled Jones whilst Jones's timing would have troubled JC.

I think Calzaghe could win Roy Jones because Roy alway has problem with southpaw and Calzaghe will workrate will make him abit distrub and not think for a gameplan or do something.

But G-Man and James Toney is going to beat JC stylewise

[MickyHatton]

I think Calzaghe could win Roy Jones because Roy alway has problem with southpaw and Calzaghe will workrate will make him abit distrub and not think for a gameplan or do something.

But G-Man and James Toney is going to beat JC stylewise

I think any of the fighters you mention here could beat Calzaghe on their night but likewise I believe he could beat them on his night.

Could you see Taylor giving Calzaghe real problems because I cant!