Marciano ruined boxing...

[Benny Leonard]

If you never lost then you never went to war.

Alexander the Great

I am not sure, but I don't think Miyamoto Musashi lost either. Considering he fought duels to the death, I am probably right.

[kayjay]

Thats obviously not what Im talking about.
Its about being a good fighter first, and ill use your example.
Toney made more money than Ottke because he was a better fighter.

After disagreeing with him at first, this seems odd. So tell us where being undefeated ranks in your list. It's not entirely irrelevant, but how important is it. Threadstarter argues only that it is overrated, and because it is so, the risky fights are never made.

I think the situation is more complicated. undefeatedness matter less with the boxing public than fighters and promoters seems to fear. Case in point is the biggest draw today, who has not ceased to be the biggest draw despite three clear losses.

[Benny Leonard]

Gatti and Ward were hardly "Undefeated" fighters, yet the public wanted two more fights after seeing the first.

The Public demands good fights, that is all.

Fighters need to fight and stop worrying if they will lose. Fighters that worry they will lose their "O" are fighters I don't want to watch; fighting to cautious is a bore.

[brownpimp88]

harry simon is undefeated with a win over winky? What happened to him, does he want to protect his legacy like marciano.

[kayjay]

Gatti and Ward were hardly "Undefeated" fighters, yet the public wanted two more fights after seeing the first.

The Public demands good fights, that is all.

Fighters need to fight and stop worrying if they will lose. Fighters that worry they will lose their "O" are fighters I don't want to watch; fighting to cautious is a bore.

Exactly.... a lot of the people who watch only two or three fights per year forget who won anyway. Ive experienced this with friends I've had chip in for PPVs. They weant to have a few beers and see guys beat each other up just every now and then. They remember the fighters but not all then details

[-Hyperion-]

Alexander the Great

I am not sure, but I don't think Miyamoto Musashi lost either. Considering he fought duels to the death, I am probably right.

according to vagabond(manga) and Musashi(novel) i think Musashi lost to Inshun of the Hozoin but ran away before being killed, but beat him in a rematch almost killing him. I know Musashi and Vagbond are not official, but I think Eiji said according to his investigations, it did happen

[RockyMarcianofan00]

I AGREE.. EVEN THO A COUPLE BLACK FIGHTERS WERE ROBBED AGAINST HIM ...

No black fighters were ever robbed against him...The only fighter that ever had a chance of being robbed against him was Roland LaStarza, and the reason behind that MD was because Marciano
A)hadn't trained
B)was afraid to go full force
both were in response to almost killing the fighter in his previous fight (Carmine Vingo)...

No other black fighter was robbed...

Black Fighters like Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott did well against him but neither were robbed my friend...

[kayjay]

I AGREE.. EVEN THO A COUPLE BLACK FIGHTERS WERE ROBBED AGAINST HIM ...

Yeah don't start this anti-Marciano **** because he's white. The good black fighters of the day all lost to him BY KNOCKOUT.

[Benny Leonard]

according to vagabond(manga) and Musashi(novel) i think Musashi lost to Inshun of the Hozoin but ran away before being killed, but beat him in a rematch almost killing him. I know Musashi and Vagbond are not official, but I think Eiji said according to his investigations, it did happen

that is interesting to hear, I have to look further into int. Thank You for the information

[PBDS]

OK the title is conjecture, and is meant to grasp your attention rather than to indicate the topic at hand.

However, when Marciano retired as undefeated 49-0 heavyweight champion he set the scene for the current situation in boxing whereby an undefeated fighter has huge advantages over those with losses in terms of getting the title shots and making the money. Before Rocky there was no emphasis in retiring undefeated, because nobody retired undefeated. In many ways it was like amateur boxing is today, in which some losses are expected in a long career and the main function of a loss is to learn from it and come back stronger.

I don't have anything against a boxer who has a 0 in the losses column, not at all. You can't knock a fighter for beating every single person they have ever faced in the ring. That would be foolish. On the other hand, in the desire to protect their fighter's saleability by keeping their winning record intact, promoters have a disincentive to actually match their fighters against dangerous opponents and make the best fights happen. This is amply demonstrated by the lack of action between Miguel Cotto, Ricky Hatton and Floyd Mayweather Jr. The principles and their teams have their reasons and excuses but one can't help feeling that if there wasn't so much to lose from a defeat these matches would have happened long ago and some of those fighters, maybe all of them, would have their 0 gone.

If you look at the greatest of all time you notice that they all have one thing in common, they all have losses on their records. They almost all have been defeated and returned to avenge their loss against their conqueror. Even fighters who nobody would put on their all time great list have won the admiration and respect of the public, and become legends in their own rights, for their courage and tenacity in coming back from the abyss to fight and win against the odds...

There is a Samurai proverb about the nature of being a warrior: Fall down seven times, stand up eight. A fighter who can stand up that one last time is greater than the one who never fell, or at least shows more of the courageous spirit that makes boxing what it is.

I'm not knocking Marciano and his record. 49-0 is impressive. But is Rocky's record impressive because of that zero? Or is it those wins we should be highlighting? For me his 49 wins including 43 knockouts over the very best opposition at the time are what makes it exceptional, not the fact that noone ever beat him.

.....Damn, this new guy is good. Excellent thread topic and very well thought out.