Joe Louis is overrated

[realheavyhands]

joe louis was a giant killer, anybody bigger then him he abused .. nobody can punch like that .. not tyson not shavers not foreman... foreman and shavers would have been sitting ducks againt louis ,too big a target...he was more explosive then tyson... he was fast slow motion and would lul you to sleep then explode on you.. and you couldnt pressure him becuase he hit too hard.. conn was so small and fast he just ran around the whole time... but big heavy weights wouldnt stand a chance

[hemichromis]

joe louis was a giant killer, anybody bigger then him he abused .. nobody can punch like that .. not tyson not shavers not foreman... foreman and shavers would have been sitting ducks againt louis ,too big a target...he was more explosive then tyson... he was fast slow motion and would lul you to sleep then explode on you.. and you couldnt pressure him becuase he hit too hard.. conn was so small and fast he just ran around the whole time... but big heavy weights wouldnt stand a chance

i'll agree joe louis is good but he certainly can;t punch harder than foreman let alone shavers!
i also wouldn't say he was more explosive than tyson but louis was a master of feinting and drawing he would get opponents to come in than hit them with very hard fast shots his shots were accurate and powerful!

[Kid Achilles]

Louis was at least as explosive as Tyson, and a lot more accurate as well. His right hand was also much straighter. Overall he was just a better puncher than Tyson period IMO.

[redxl7]

Louis was a legend, he wasn't overrated and could take down any one we have around today, you don't know what your talking about.

[The Noose]

We got 9 pages of people saying he wasnt overrated! LOL

Next thread....FOREMAN COULDNT PUNCH.

[Hydro]

What do you think "Genes" are?

African-Americans have good genes, not all, but many that are naturally muscled from their ancestor’s years of heavy labor.

For Bo Jackson, we are talking about a dirt-poor kid, said by others to have always been naturally big and did not lift weights in high school.

Jim Brown was not lifting weights with his team, but might have on his own, not sure...he was about 6'2, 230, around or the same height and weight as his father.


I think Tyson's alleged father was even a construction work at one time.

You also have to consider that kids in poverty stricken neighborhoods, although sometimes can be malnourished, can have higher hormone levels in their system while growing up, into their adult years, from the environment; being that of a "only the strong survive"/war zone.
The food eaten as well, contributes to it.

Tyson was eating well, working-out hard in a sport that requires you to be the best to survive. There is also another psychological direction you can take, which I am not sure about, but just for discussion: I heard that sometimes if you put it into your mind through repetition, that you have to be this, sometimes it can come true. So for example, if somebody sees that you are naturally a big kid, and tells you, "you can become the Heavyweight Champion of the World", through constant reminders through speech, visual (which is watching fights of the heavyweights), and thought, you grow into what you feel you must become because if you don't, you will die.
Of course, you can tear this down, but a small part of it could be true, especially if you have the genetic potential to start as your foundation.


It does not mean it is 100% positive that Tyson and others were not on steroids, but you have to give him the benefit of the doubt considering that he was big as a young kid, and trained by "Old School" trainers. If Tyson was on steroids, then Cus had to of known about it. Tyson would have been put on them in his mid teen years since he was already big at that point. Judging by Tyson's head size by the time he was 13, he was lucky to have a 200+-pound body because it would of looked ridiculous if he did not.

Also look at Tyson's body when he was with Rooney, and then look at his body when he came out of prison and continued his career: It was alleged he never lifting during his prime, but is known he did it after he came out of prison. His muscles do look different in that in his prime, he was not as tight/compact as later. I always wondered if those that say lifting weights could hurt your stamina since either Tyson never trained his cardio the same again after he left Rooney, or the weight lifting affected his stamina.
Maybe it was from rust, but his punches were not as fluid as they were in his prime.

Maybe he did lift weights in his prime, but wouldn't it have been better known if he did?

I guess you could argue that they kept it "hush, hush"

You also have to remember this: If a 200+ pound person is doing Push-ups, pull-ups (both arms and back versions), and squats, then it is still some form of lifting to increase or keep muscle on.


Has there been anything said by Teddy Atlas or Kevin Rooney on the matter?
Teddy wrote a book, did he mention anything about it?


In addition, if he did, it does not mean he was on steroids. However, your point was he could not have kept that much muscle on his body with the cardio he was doing, so if he did lift weights it could explain why he was able to keep the weight on, so fair enough.

If I can remember correctly, I think it was in a magazine interview, where Tyson said he carried weights to run up and down the steps of his building in New York...this was an after prison interview, so I am not sure if he did it in his days with Rooney.

There is always the possibility though

Good post.

I don't think Tyson was on the juice. He was just a monster. The man-child was already 200 lbs. and seemed very powerfully built at age 12 or 13.

One of the HWs in recent years I do question regarding the juice is Evander Holyfield.

[Mike Tyson77]

The "Brown Bomber" is a top 3 HW anyway you look at it. He is not overrated.

[QueensburyRules]

Lots of people think for some reason that he is the best or second best heavyweight ever. To me that is ridiculous.

First of all, Louis got dropped by damn near everybody. Yeah, he got up to win most of them, but he was still getting dropped by people who arent even considered worthy opponents. If Louis could get dropped by guys like Galento, Buddy Baer, Walcott and Schmeling, then guys with LOTS more power like Foreman, Tyson, and Frazier would be able to put him down and keep him down.

Secondly, lots of you claim that he did everything perfect and had one of the best jabs. He couldnt have had that good of a jab if Max Schmeling exposed the fact that Louis brought the jab back low and KOed him. How could he have had the second best jab if one of the tools used to beat him was countering over his lazy jab?? As far as the skills go, He "did everything perfect" but he got dropped continuosly, obvious he was doing something wrong because not only was he easy to hit but easy to drop. Furthermore, the "perfect" heavyweight was getting outboxed by a light heavyweight Billy COnn and would have lost if Conn had not made a mistake and decided to trade with the bigger guy.

Lastly, his competion was far from great. Now to put this into perspective, lets compare his oppositon in equivalent matchups against the opposition of the man I think deserves to be considered the #2 heavyweight... Evander Holyfield. Every great had an opponent linked to them, For Louis that is Schmeling. Holyfield will always be remembered for his bouts with Tyson. They both faced a big not too talented guy to jumpstart their heavyweight career (Carnera,Douglas), they had a skilled competive memorable opponent (Walcott, Bowe). They both face a good skilled fighter alittle past their primes (Charles,Leiws) and they both fought a smaller guy on the way up the heavyweight ranks while they were WAY past their prime (Marciano, Toney). SO...

Joe Louis Evander Holyfield

Max Schmeling vs Mike TYson
Primo Carnera vs BUster Douglas
Joe Walcott vs Rid**** Bowe
Ezzard Charles vs Lennox Lewis
Rocky Marcaino vs James Toney

*Bonus
Jim Braddock vs John Ruiz
Buddy Bear vs George FOreman
Billy COnn vs Micheal Moorer


If they were to fight it out, the only guy from Louis era I can see maybe getting a win would be Marciano beating TOney and maybe Billy COnn beating Moorer. Other than that Louis era gets demolished.

The bottom line is that Louis was a good top ten heavyweight, and was the best of HIS era. HOWEVER his biggest wins were lacking compared the other great fighters he would have to be better than to be # 2 and he is no where near the best.

- -Squabby types endemic on boxing forums compiling bukos names out of context to events compounded by misreading events.

A sorta proto Teensy. Interesting that he chose a heavy with a 28-10-2 boxing record nowhere near Joes run of excellence that only Wlad has been able to barely touch all these years later.

Squabby, we barely knew U!

[cfang]

Louis made 26 defences. How many would he have had without the war? 40? Hes the best or second best heavy ever.

You can pick holes with any boxer if you try.

[HOUDINI563]

Top 2 ATG heavyweight champion at the very least. Most skilled heavyweight ever to live. Universally considered top 2 ATG heavyweight champion for many decades.