Sugar Ray Robinson v Charles Burley

[QueensburyRules]

LMAO!


Dammit, you put me in stitches. My ribs are broken. I can't stop laughing.

You really just compared Burley to Gavilan? I can't think of two fighters more different.

Ray did NOT attempt to avenge his sole amateur loss to Graham, who WAS like Burley. And Graham certainly did have a following.


Look you're not wrong, Burley wasn't thrilling and his career was disastrously mismanaged (while it's true Armstrong wanted nothing to do with Burley, he really wanted nothing do with ANYONE with a pulse; and Zivic's mgmt did seem to neatly shelve Burley so Fritizy could get his shot). That doesn't change the fact that Ray definitely pursued the path of least resistance. Gavilan, for example, was easy for Ray.

I would pick Ray to beat Graham and Burley. Burley struggled with Williams' handspeed, and he lacked Ray's size and power. Burley also seems prone to being bullied, which Ray did quite well.

I doubt Burley is an easy fight. Maxim, Turpin and the Filipino weren't. But it's not a fight I'd expect Ray to lose.

Really, Burley is another one of these internet-age folk heroes who's legacy doesn't hold up well under scrutiny.

- -No doubt somewhere in that free range, ramble of atonal, discordant, freestreaming nonsensense is an acorn waiting to be unearthed by a rooting hog.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -No doubt somewhere in that free range, ramble of atonal, discordant, freestreaming nonsensense is an acorn waiting to be unearthed by a rooting hog.

Don't pretend like you didn't hang on every word.

Now please, yell me what Burley and Gavilan had in common... or maybe at least tell me what Gavilan did that was ever troublesome to Robinson.... i'm waiting

[QueensburyRules]

It was also a time when the game was regional, not national in scope. It was a time when champions where crowned in New York (or at best in the East or Chicago) -- Burley was Pittsburgh fighter who chose to go south (first) to New Orleans and then out to the West Coast.

He fought in the New York area only twice in his (very long) career. Once at St. Nicholas (very early on) and then in '45 when he dropped an important 10 rounder to Holman Williams.

To repeat all the things you said: Terrible draw, contract sold repeatedly, and often found himself as a bridesmaid in the rankings sitting behind SRR or Holman Williams.


He never really got ducked for a title shot, he couldn't rise to the top of the rankings. (Also got burnt by the War Years moratorium on title fights.)

I feel certain on a day-to-day bases he was often avoided. There was little reason for anyone to want to fight him, several big reasons to avoid him.

- -Burley reminds me of Harry Wills in their unconventional thinking outside the ring.

Wills was a vegetarian when intellectually that was near impossible with the knowledge of nutrition then. Burley seemed to have strong enough socialist ties to turn down an "Hitler" Olympic berth berth in Berlin that made Jesse Owens a huge star.

He instead joined some socialist team for games in Spain that were cancelled in the wake of the Franco revolution if I didn't bungle my history as I recollect.

But for the opportunities that boxing opened up for them, prob today both would be doing something else.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Burley reminds me of Harry Wills in their unconventional thinking outside the ring.

Wills was a vegetarian when intellectually that was near impossible with the knowledge of nutrition then. Burley seemed to have strong enough socialist ties to turn down an "Hitler" Olympic berth berth in Berlin that made Jesse Owens a huge star.

He instead joined some socialist team for games in Spain that were cancelled in the wake of the Franco revolution if I didn't bungle my history as I recollect.

But for the opportunities that boxing opened up for them, prob today both would be doing something else.

That was very interesting.

The People's Olympics, Barcelona July 19th - 26th. Charles Burley was selected by the Fair Play in Sports Committee along with 11 others athletes.

According to the NYT they were evacuated from the city on the 24th as the games were canceled. Seven came home, two went on to Berlin to compete, while two went on to Prague for a different competition. One was detained in Spain because of visa problems, but it did not identify which athlete did what. No results posted; maybe no events occurred.

I wonder if there was a political intention on Burley's part or if he just saw an opportunity to compete in a high profile tournament?

I am not sure this was a socialist event, but instead an anti-**** protest.

It seems to have been primarily a religious movement supported by organized labor,* the NAACP, and several major newspapers.

Excerpt on Henry Smith Leiper (One of the founders):

As Berlin’s preparations for the Olympic Games progressed, individuals and organizations around the world began to raise their voices in protest . . . In the United States, opposition to holding the Games in Berlin was expressed by ***ish and Catholic organizations, and by the American Federation of Labor, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and in the editorial pages of the New York Times, Commonweal, and the Christian Century.

From: https://www.history.pcusa.org/blog/2...erlin-olympics

* If you are of the Fox News mind kind you will conclude that all 'organized labor' is socialist, but that's as close a socialist connection I can find.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Burley reminds me of Harry Wills in their unconventional thinking outside the ring.

Wills was a vegetarian when intellectually that was near impossible with the knowledge of nutrition then. Burley seemed to have strong enough socialist ties to turn down an "Hitler" Olympic berth berth in Berlin that made Jesse Owens a huge star.

He instead joined some socialist team for games in Spain that were cancelled in the wake of the Franco revolution if I didn't bungle my history as I recollect.

But for the opportunities that boxing opened up for them, prob today both would be doing something else.

Now that's insightful. It makes one wonder how his fate might've differed had he also blossomed in Berlin.

[Rusty Tromboni]

That was very interesting.

The People's Olympics, Barcelona July 19th - 26th. Charles Burley was selected by the Fair Play in Sports Committee along with 11 others athletes.

According to the NYT they were evacuated from the city on the 24th as the games were canceled. Seven came home, two went on to Berlin to compete, while two went on to Prague for a different competition. One was detained in Spain because of visa problems, but it did not identify which athlete did what. No results posted; maybe no events occurred.

I wonder if there was a political intention on Burley's part or if he just saw an opportunity to compete in a high profile tournament?

I am not sure this was a socialist event, but instead an anti-**** protest.

It seems to have been primarily a religious movement supported by organized labor,* the NAACP, and several major newspapers.

Excerpt on Henry Smith Leiper (One of the founders):

As Berlin’s preparations for the Olympic Games progressed, individuals and organizations around the world began to raise their voices in protest . . . In the United States, opposition to holding the Games in Berlin was expressed by ***ish and Catholic organizations, and by the American Federation of Labor, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and in the editorial pages of the New York Times, Commonweal, and the Christian Century.

From: https://www.history.pcusa.org/blog/2...erlin-olympics

* If you are of the Fox News mind kind you will conclude that all 'organized labor' is socialist, but that's as close a socialist connection I can find.

Great find!

Burley was an odd-duck. It's a shame he didn't win a belt. It's also a shame he wasn't better studied in his own lifetime.

Was he ****sexual? It would explain a lot

[QueensburyRules]

That was very interesting.

The People's Olympics, Barcelona July 19th - 26th. Charles Burley was selected by the Fair Play in Sports Committee along with 11 others athletes.

According to the NYT they were evacuated from the city on the 24th as the games were canceled. Seven came home, two went on to Berlin to compete, while two went on to Prague for a different competition. One was detained in Spain because of visa problems, but it did not identify which athlete did what. No results posted; maybe no events occurred.

I wonder if there was a political intention on Burley's part or if he just saw an opportunity to compete in a high profile tournament?

I am not sure this was a socialist event, but instead an anti-**** protest.

It seems to have been primarily a religious movement supported by organized labor,* the NAACP, and several major newspapers.

Excerpt on Henry Smith Leiper (One of the founders):

As Berlin’s preparations for the Olympic Games progressed, individuals and organizations around the world began to raise their voices in protest . . . In the United States, opposition to holding the Games in Berlin was expressed by ***ish and Catholic organizations, and by the American Federation of Labor, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and in the editorial pages of the New York Times, Commonweal, and the Christian Century.

From: https://www.history.pcusa.org/blog/2...erlin-olympics

* If you are of the Fox News mind kind you will conclude that all 'organized labor' is socialist, but that's as close a socialist connection I can find.

- -Impressive, Perno, but understand the Communist/Socialist movement in the US was quite strong at that time.

Karl Marx was still seen in a positive light as an alternative economic alternative to capitalism, this before the post ww2 power vacuum that kicked off the Cold War still with us to this very day.

Karl Marx was a German *** that by default became a movement for all the ***s fleeing Hitler, most of whom landed in NYC, from which Bernie Sanders sprang forth still here today making and shaping political policy today.

Regardless, no kid gets talked out of a berth on the Olympic team without coherent reason, so adding up what I know about Burleys background, he must've been involved to a degree in those types of political discussions.

For perspective, Big George returned to Houston as the star of the 68 Mexico Olympics and given a parade and key to the city but couldn't find even the lowliest job and basically forced into the pros where he was booed heavily as the panto bad guy.

Go figure people and boxing at your own peril!

[billeau2]

- -Impressive, Perno, but understand the Communist/Socialist movement in the US was quite strong at that time.

Karl Marx was still seen in a positive light as an alternative economic alternative to capitalism, this before the post ww2 power vacuum that kicked off the Cold War still with us to this very day.

Karl Marx was a German *** that by default became a movement for all the ***s fleeing Hitler, most of whom landed in NYC, from which Bernie Sanders sprang forth still here today making and shaping political policy today.

Regardless, no kid gets talked out of a berth on the Olympic team without coherent reason, so adding up what I know about Burleys background, he must've been involved to a degree in those types of political discussions.

For perspective, Big George returned to Houston as the star of the 68 Mexico Olympics and given a parade and key to the city but couldn't find even the lowliest job and basically forced into the pros where he was booed heavily as the panto bad guy.

Go figure people and boxing at your own peril!

This post should prove to anyone why it is worth putting up with you (shakes fist said tongue in cheek)... Very well explained, very true. I can attest as my grandfather was in that group, as a matter of fact, my father was of that influence (my uncle, dad's brother became religious) and dad always hated the proselatizing ***s that would approach us in brooklyn when visiting Grandma.

Its worth mentioning that one could still study Marxism back then in the University system, with no hyperbole. The people in the Communist party were instrumental in forming unions and protecting people working for a living. My Grandfather was a house painter. Dad told me that often, there were guests in the house wanted by the FBI... They would go into the closet when the fedora wearing agents would come a knocking.

Oh one more important point: Blacks and ***s at that time had a great relationship. Both groups had mutual empathy for the other. I can remember going to floresheim shoes where my uncle managed, we would come in for shoes.... Everyone who worked there (Far Rockaway) had an Afro lol, many had Spanish sir names. Burley, no doubt was a progressive individual, as was Wills.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Impressive, Perno, but understand the Communist/Socialist movement in the US was quite strong at that time.

Karl Marx was still seen in a positive light as an alternative economic alternative to capitalism, this before the post ww2 power vacuum that kicked off the Cold War still with us to this very day.

Karl Marx was a German *** that by default became a movement for all the ***s fleeing Hitler, most of whom landed in NYC, from which Bernie Sanders sprang forth still here today making and shaping political policy today.

Regardless, no kid gets talked out of a berth on the Olympic team without coherent reason, so adding up what I know about Burleys background, he must've been involved to a degree in those types of political discussions.

For perspective, Big George returned to Houston as the star of the 68 Mexico Olympics and given a parade and key to the city but couldn't find even the lowliest job and basically forced into the pros where he was booed heavily as the panto bad guy.

Go figure people and boxing at your own peril!

No doubt -- the Abraham Lincoln Brigade that ventured to Spain that very same year was purely a championing of the Socialist cause.

But Henry Smith Leiper the mover and shaker of this protest was a Protestant missionary, who was publicly dogging the **** early on.

Using mere conjecture I would say we should look at Burley and the NAACP for a relationship; but true, a possible connection to a ***ish manager (at that time) could also be a socialist connection.

I am curious why you would see Burley as being politically minded.

Although the $64 question is why wasn't Burley on the Berlin team? I checked out the '36 team and didn't notice any big future names.

Was Burley a 'protester' who turned down Berlin? Interesting question.

[QueensburyRules]

No doubt -- the Abraham Lincoln Brigade that ventured to Spain that very same year was purely a championing of the Socialist cause.

But Henry Smith Leiper the mover and shaker of this protest was a Protestant missionary, who was publicly dogging the **** early on.

Using mere conjecture I would say we should look at Burley and the NAACP for a relationship; but true, a possible connection to a ***ish manager (at that time) could also be a socialist connection.

I am curious why you would see Burley as being politically minded.

Although the $64 question is why wasn't Burley on the Berlin team? I checked out the '36 team and didn't notice any big future names.

Was Burley a 'protester' who turned down Berlin? Interesting question.

- -An Olympic gold medal didn't mean much professional then. See Pete Rademacher.

Ali was the first gold medalist to amount to anything.

Is there even a Burley bio to shed light then?