John L. Sullivan

[HOUDINI563]

Jeffries fought 4 bouts against black fighters. More than most all white heavyweight champion up to Louis. Just not for the title. Again the reason was that Jeffries was bound to the American cultural tradition that a black man never be given the opportunity to win a title that would make him the physical master of all men.

[QueensburyRules]

Jeffries fought 4 bouts against black fighters. More than most all white heavyweight champion up to Louis. Just not for the title. Again the reason was that Jeffries was bound to the American cultural tradition that a black man never be given the opportunity to win a title that would make him the physical master of all men.

- -5 black fighter bouts and one Mexican = 25 % minority fights out of 24 fights total, an above average of minority demographics of his day.

U as the master of none should not pontificate your nonesensical projections on those masters of all.

[Marchegiano]

- - Did Mendoza abuse the KD rule that killed the rd for a one minute rest period like Bendigo did?

There were uncounted dozens of KDs and throw downs in the epic JL vs Kilrain bout that were mostly legit by JL.

It'd be a bit of a surprise to me if he didn't, but I can't be confident at the moment.

I'll have to check. Gimme a little while, I know I at least have his Humphries fight handy, but I'm pretty sure there's another in the Chris Shelton Bare Knuckle book I own.

Thing is it's been so long since I actually read anything Sullivan I'm not sure if you're referring to Flopping or actual wrestling moves legal under R-LPRR.



It'd be a surprise to me because basically everyone flops at some point and as you go back in time and get closer and closer to Figg it gets more and more prevalent. Figg's first pupil to take up the honor of fighting for England against a foreign fighter for supremacy in boxing won by flopping until the Venato man quit. So from then it's what 1725ish when Whitaker is flopping, Bendigo is mid 1840s, the full hundo between them featured lots of flopping so I'd assume Mendoza too.


A good flopping story is Yankee Sullivan, Tom Hyer, Chris Lilly, and Tom McCoy's mixed tale.

[Marchegiano]

Problem is...what was considered normal “speak” in those days sounds like off the wall racist today. As an example some of the statements by Jeffries. Conversely others have written he was not racist in the least.

Yeah, it was kinda a dumb question really. Well handled bud.

Jeffries fought 4 bouts against black fighters. More than most all white heavyweight champion up to Louis. Just not for the title. Again the reason was that Jeffries was bound to the American cultural tradition that a black man never be given the opportunity to win a title that would make him the physical master of all men.

I don't know that he planned it that way, or that he didn't, but I do think it works out quite well for Jeffries because he looks like a guy who did his best to work within the atmosphere and still prove he's the best of en era.

Sure, Peter Jackson was old by then, but, Peter was a well respected dude and an old Jackson looks much better today than a question mark. Sullivan will probably always get a bit of flack for Godfrey. Godfrey was old too, and lost to Jake, but since Sully didn't fight him directly we have that question.

[QueensburyRules]

Yeah, it was kinda a dumb question really. Well handled bud.



I don't know that he planned it that way, or that he didn't, but I do think it works out quite well for Jeffries because he looks like a guy who did his best to work within the atmosphere and still prove he's the best of en era.

Sure, Peter Jackson was old by then, but, Peter was a well respected dude and an old Jackson looks much better today than a question mark. Sullivan will probably always get a bit of flack for Godfrey. Godfrey was old too, and lost to Jake, but since Sully didn't fight him directly we have that question.

- -He and Godfrey were supposed to fight, but Godfrey got wind the police would be arresting them and wisely didn't show up.

Sully tossed in the clink uncounted times, the risk of doing business then with out in the sticks shadowy rural areas in someone's pasture willing to rent it out for more than he normally made in a year.

[Marchegiano]

- -He and Godfrey were supposed to fight, but Godfrey got wind the police would be arresting them and wisely didn't show up.

Sully tossed in the clink uncounted times, the risk of doing business then with out in the sticks shadowy rural areas in someone's pasture willing to rent it out for more than he normally made in a year.

Not blaming Sully, I'm just saying Jeffries did a better job at covering his ass. Intentionally or not, I don't know.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -Ace points, Pep.

But what about the story of JJ beating up the promoter of the Burns fight to seize his % + the promoter % to hightail it to Vancouver instead of England where Sam Langford arrived in anticipation of his guaranteed fight with Johnson?

What do your sleuth skills tell us about this muddled period of history?

I can't find anything on the Internet regarding Johnson ripping off the Australian promoters.

Was able to place him in Vancouver fighting Victor McLaglen (exhibition) three months later. (Jack Johnson and Vancouver History) So he was certainly there and not London. A month after that, April, he is in Phily fighting another exhibition, and then eventually a defense against Philadelphia Jack O'Brien.

I was also able to track down the name of the Australian promoter, Hugh D. McIntosh, known as "Huge Deal" McIntosh (Sammons, Beyond the Ring), who also refereed the bout, but no story about being ripped off.

At that time Johnson also seems to have had a strange relationship with a manager/matchmaker named Sam Fitzpatrick, who at first arranged for a Burns-Johnson go in London (with each fighting getting a sad 500 pounds.) Both fighters refused the deal and Burns left for Australia. It was there with no real 'white' fighters to speak of, to build a serious gate with, that "Huge Deal" made his move. Burns insisted on 30K and McIntosh delivered.

I have a hard time thinking that Johnson was able to rip off this guy McIntosh, but who knows.

I be more likely to think that it may have been Sam Fitzpatrick, who in the end, he screwed over. IMO That seems more likely.

Why did Johnson go to Vancouver????

Can you refer any sources I could look into?

P.S. Weird but isn't Vancouver where Tommy Burns is buried?

[HOUDINI563]

Their are many instances all through Johnson’s reign of proposed bouts with contenders such as Langford that eventually fell though. Today those who are bent upon pointing a finger that Johnson himself was afraid to fight these opponents use this information as proof. However in every instance once you dig deeper the proposal fell through due to promoters not being able to offer the purse required. Also their was always more money to be made pitting a white opponent against Johnson. For the lay public a black vs black match left no one to root for. Thus a low level of interest and the real potential for poor gate receipts.

[Willie Pep 229]

Not blaming Sully, I'm just saying Jeffries did a better job at covering his ass. Intentionally or not, I don't know.

Here's an ugly quote from Jeffries.

From BoxRec:

James J. Jeffries wrote: "Tommy Burns has his price—$30,000. Burns has sold his pride, the pride of the Caucasian race...The Canadian never will be forgiven by the public for allowing the title of the best physical man in the world to be wrested from his keeping by a member of the African race....I refused time and again to meet Johnson while I was holding the title, even though I knew I could beat him. I would never allow a negro a chance to fight for the world's championship, and I advise all other champions to follow the same course....All night long I was besieged with telegrams asking me to re-enter the ring. I answer them now as I have answered them hundreds of times: 'I have fought my last fight.'"

[Marchegiano]

Here's an ugly quote from Jeffries.

From BoxRec:

James J. Jeffries wrote: "Tommy Burns has his price—$30,000. Burns has sold his pride, the pride of the Caucasian race...The Canadian never will be forgiven by the public for allowing the title of the best physical man in the world to be wrested from his keeping by a member of the African race....I refused time and again to meet Johnson while I was holding the title, even though I knew I could beat him. I would never allow a negro a chance to fight for the world's championship, and I advise all other champions to follow the same course....All night long I was besieged with telegrams asking me to re-enter the ring. I answer them now as I have answered them hundreds of times: 'I have fought my last fight.'"

I didn't mean he covered himself better in regards to racism, I meant in regards to dominating his era.

I don't know which of them were actually racists and which were doing it for the public. That's why I asked about it before. To be honest it does seem like Sully, Corbett, and Jeffries were pretty damn racist, but like y'all already said they could just be saying that stuff for their audience.

Childs, Klon***e, or Martin probably would be better names for him, but, Peter Jackson is a legend none of the prime colored champions of Jeffries' era ever attained or even really got close to. I'd guess Childs is the most famous of them and he's no Jackson.

Sullivan just doesn't have that. Hadley, Godfrey, or Armstrong would have been great for his resume ....well, today.