Johnson, McVey, Wills, Jeannette...The Simple Proof of How Great They Were.

[travestyny]

@travestyny

I think you are confused. I'm talking about the signed contract for the 1909 fight which Johnson backed out of. Your'e cornered and I said I'd try to recruit the author of the Langford book to clean this up in March.

And by the way, I'd like to say one more thing about this.

First of all, again, recruit anyone you want and their momma. I guarantee they don't uncover a contract for the May of 1909 fight. If there was a contract for May of 1909, the promoter wouldn't have tried to show proof of the May 1909 fight by showing a document that only referenced the proposed February fight that was put off. It's obvious they had nothing referencing the May fight. People sign contracts for legal compulsion. Why do you think there is no court case here?

But the fact that you would try so hard to pin Jack Johnson to a contract worth as little as $2000 for the Heavyweight Championship of the World shows either the great degree to which you are consumed with petty hatred toward Jack Johnson or how little you understand about why these men were beating the tar out of each other, and what they came from. There's a reason they all wanted the Heavyweight Championship, and it had nothing to do with holding up their pants.

Being that you'd obviously be a shlt boxing manager, I think we can disregard your opinions about the direction of a boxer's career. Unless, of course, you can explain to me why former hobo Jack Johnson should have put up the championship for as little as $2000 when other men were getting $30,000 for doing the same.


If you can't understand the concept of prize fighting, especially for a formerly homeless man who just snatched the Heavyweight Championship of the World, I don't think you are qualified to be posting in the boxing history section.

[travestyny]

@travestyny

"Johnson admitted that he had no wish to face Langford again. “I don’t want to fight that little smoke,” said Johnson. “He’s got a chance to win against anyone in the world. I’m the first black champion and I’m going to be the last.”

" Two and a half years later, Johnson won the heavyweight championship by defeating Tommy Burns. Over the ensuing years, Langford and his manager, Joe Woodman, hounded Johnson in futile pursuit of an opportunity to fight for the title. '"

https://www.blackpast.org/global-afr...rgotten-boxer/

Just a reason why from Johnson himself on why he never fought Langford again. Now can you reply back to my questions for one, or are you busy practicing the art of the duck?

Like I said before, I'll let the author speak here, and if he does you will be buried.

You've already been buried son. I been waiting for your author to come through as long as I've been waiting for you to answer this simple question:


Did Jack Johnson agree to fight Sam Langford THREE times? Still waiting....duck duck duck


By the way, for what...the 5th time now... I've answered your questions. But feel free to keep pretending that I haven't so that you can keep ducking me COWARD!

[Willie Pep 229]

That's a good one. Never heard of any Grebb-Langford talk. I know they fought on the same card in 1918. But by that time Langford was weighing in the 190's I think. Greb seemed to be around 165 or so.

I think Langford was mainly interested in Ketchel, Johnson, and the other white hopes. Probably since at least 1909. Apparently Greb debuted in 1913. I guess the timing never quite worked out...?

Dempsey was offered Langford at least twice I suppose. Once when he was younger, I think soon after fighting John Lester Johnson (who might have put him off of fighting black dudes ever again), and then later when Sam was apparently pretty much blind. Apparently Dempsey's management told Sam they were looking for someone easier. I believe that's the story Bert Sugar told.

Come on, Langford was damage goods by '22 and you still have Dempsey ducking him, because Bert Sugar said so. Come on man !

[travestyny]

Come on, Langford was damage goods by '22 and you still have Dempsey ducking him, because Bert Sugar said so. Come on man !

Do you want to call it a different name? Avoided? Sidestepped? Refused? Declined? Whatever you want to call it, he wasn't going near any version of Langford. You know it and I know it. He also knew it apparently.

[Willie Pep 229]

Do you want to call it a different name? Avoided? Sidestepped? Refused? Declined? Whatever you want to call it, he wasn't going near any version of Langford. You know it and I know it. He also knew it apparently.

Yes, "humanity" if Dempsey had fought Langford in '22 he would have killed (literally) the half-blind ring worn old man. They (Kearns/Dempsey) didn't duck him they said "no" to what would have been a sad night for boxing.

You like to challenge people and say "you didn't answer my question" OK I want to throw that back at you, "you didn't answer my question" -- I asked you what would be be saying right now if Dempsey had KOed Sam Langford in 1922? Would I be hearing how Dempsey is one of the greatest of all time because he beat one of the greatest of all time or would I be hearing much about Langford's blind eye and old age? Be honest? Be honest with yourself.

The fight would have been meaningless!

In regards to the boldface above: Nonsense! Pure nonsense.

[travestyny]

[/B]

Yes, "humanity" if Dempsey had fought Langford in '22 he would have killed (literally) the half-blind ring worn old man. They (Kearns/Dempsey) didn't duck him they said "no" to what would have been a sad night for boxing.

I mean you can make up any narrative that you want as if you were there, but all of the sources speak of Kearns saying they were looking for someone easier. I don't think they shared your confidence.

And I'm not sure why you are settled on 1922. Even after the initial offer (which you guys excuse Dempsey for but Dempsey's sparring partner wasn't afraid to take that fight at similar age and experience to Dempsey), Langford was asking for Dempsey since at least 1918, before he was champ.

You like to challenge people and say "you didn't answer my question" OK I want to throw that back at you, "you didn't answer my question" -- I asked you what would be be saying right now if Dempsey had KOed Sam Langford in 1922? Would I be hearing how Dempsey is one of the greatest of all time because he beat one of the greatest of all time or would I be hearing much about Langford's blind eye and old age? Be honest? Be honest with yourself.

I don't like to challenge anyone. I like to have a conversation that is give and take instead of all of the cowardly bs.

What would I say if he beat Langford? I'd say good win....now give Wills his shot.

The fight would have been meaningless!

In regards to the boldface above: Nonsense! Pure nonsense.

I'm sure it would have been meaningful to Langford. And again, Dempsey admit he was afraid of him. Kearns said they wanted someone easier. Old Jeannette also scared Dempsey out of a fight. It's not exactly out of character for these guys.


But since I answered your question, let me ask you one now. It's one I asked before but I don't believe you ever answered it.


You've stated before that Dempsey didn't decline Jeannette based on race. Does that mean he declined Joe Jeannette because he considered him to be too good?

[Willie Pep 229]

I mean you can make up any narrative that you want as if you were there, but all of the sources speak of Kearns saying they were looking for someone easier. I don't think they shared your confidence.

And I'm not sure why you are settled on 1922. Even after the initial offer (which you guys excuse Dempsey for but Dempsey's sparring partner wasn't afraid to take that fight at similar age and experience to Dempsey), Langford was asking for Dempsey since at least 1918, before he was champ.



I don't like to challenge anyone. I like to have a conversation that is give and take instead of all of the cowardly bs.

What would I say if he beat Langford? I'd say good win....now give Wills his shot.





I'm sure it would have been meaningful to Langford. And again, Dempsey admit he was afraid of him. Kearns said they wanted someone easier. Old Jeannette also scared Dempsey out of a fight. It's not exactly out of character for these guys.


But since I answered your question, let me ask you one now. It's one I asked before but I don't believe you ever answered it.


You've stated before that Dempsey didn't decline Jeannette based on race. Does that mean he declined Joe Jeannette because he considered him to be too good?

That's your answer and you accuse Dempsey of ducking?

"too good" is a relative phrase -- yes he was 'to good' to suddenly appear across the ring when Dempsey was expecting a half effort exhibition, not a prize fight. That was the dirty trick you won't admit to.

[travestyny]

That's your answer and you accuse Dempsey of ducking?

What problem do you have with my answer? I'm not sure what you want me to say. Like I said, what would YOU say if he lost? I'm not sure what you are fishing for here. Langford was still competitive from '18 into the '20's.

"too good" is a relative phrase -- yes he was 'to good' to suddenly appear across the ring when Dempsey was expecting a half effort exhibition, not a prize fight. That was the dirty trick you won't admit to.

Why was it a dirty trick when in Dempsey's own words he said he would fight ANY TWO white men they have in the place. I guess the trick was that a boxer with brown skin was lurking.

So he would have fought Hercules and Achilles, but not Joe Jeannette. Is that safe to say? That's clearly saying to me that Old Joe Jeannette was too good. It's no wonder Dempsey would go nowhere near Langford then.


Again, it's Dempsey's own words that thwart your argument. Either he declined due to race, or he declined because he thought Jeannette was better than ANY TWO white men. Pretty sure that proves the point of my thread here, and is consistent with old Langford making Dempsey wish for two or three white men instead. Not sure how you argue around it, buddy. It is what it is.

[Willie Pep 229]

I mean you can make up any narrative that you want as if you were there, but all of the sources speak of Kearns saying they were looking for someone easier. I don't think they shared your confidence.

And I'm not sure why you are settled on 1922. Even after the initial offer (which you guys excuse Dempsey for but Dempsey's sparring partner wasn't afraid to take that fight at similar age and experience to Dempsey), Langford was asking for Dempsey since at least 1918, before he was champ.



I don't like to challenge anyone. I like to have a conversation that is give and take instead of all of the cowardly bs.

What would I say if he beat Langford? I'd say good win....now give Wills his shot.





I'm sure it would have been meaningful to Langford. And again, Dempsey admit he was afraid of him. Kearns said they wanted someone easier. Old Jeannette also scared Dempsey out of a fight. It's not exactly out of character for these guys.


But since I answered your question, let me ask you one now. It's one I asked before but I don't believe you ever answered it.


You've stated before that Dempsey didn't decline Jeannette based on race. Does that mean he declined Joe Jeannette because he considered him to be too good?

Why would Dempsey sour his relationship with Rickard by crossing the color line to fight Langford in 1918?

He (Dempsey) was positioned for a tile shot at Willard which Rickard would have pulled away if he thought for a second Dempsey would put the HW title at risk with a Black man.

Do I really need to argue Rickard's state of mind after JJ's win over Jeffries which insured that nobody (including Johnson) would make any serious money for the next five years?

Rickard had Willard under contract and the only way to the title was though Rickard; literally the day after Dempsey won the title from Willard he repeated a press release, almost verbatim, that Willard had recited four years earlier, neither would cross the color line. The statement was Rickard's put into the mouth of both fighters.

If Dempsey starts fighting Black fighters in 1918 Rickard walks away from him.

IMO you need to learn to evaluate the historical participants based the realities and context of their times, not impose this 21st Century philosophical 'water walking' you like to argue; arguing that a culture one hundred years in the past is suppose to measure up to today's values. You're not doing historical research you are crusading.

Of course Kearns said nice things about the ring worn Langford. Both Dempsey and Kearns likely admired Sam Langford; what would you have Kearns say . . . the truth, that Langford was not only Black, which would complicate the hell out of things, but was also a finished fighter who wouldn't help build the gate?

I know you know the history, start putting the quotes you use in context.

[travestyny]

Why would Dempsey sour his relationship with Rickard by crossing the color line to fight Langford in 1918?

He (Dempsey) was positioned for a tile shot at Willard which Rickard would have pulled away if he thought for a second Dempsey would put the HW title at risk with a Black man.

Do I really need to argue Rickard's state of mind after JJ's win over Jeffries which insured that nobody (including Johnson) would make any serious money for the next five years?

Rickard had Willard under contract and the only way to the title was though Rickard; literally the day after Dempsey won the title from Willard he repeated a press release, almost verbatim, that Willard had recited four years earlier, neither would cross the color line. The statement was Rickard's put into the mouth of both fighters.

If Dempsey starts fighting Black fighters in 1918 Rickard walks away from him.

IMO you need to learn to evaluate the historical participants based the realities and context of their times, not impose this 21st Century philosophical 'water walking' you like to argue; arguing that a culture one hundred years in the past is suppose to measure up to today's values. You're not doing historical research you are crusading.

Of course Kearns said nice things about the ring worn Langford. Both Dempsey and Kearns likely admired Sam Langford; what would you have Kearns say . . . the truth, that Langford was not only Black, which would complicate the hell out of things, but was also a finished fighter who wouldn't help build the gate?

I know you know the history, start putting the quotes you use in context.

Oh please. I said trying to fight him at least SINCE 1918. What about after he was champion then? 1919 - 1926. Langford tried multiple times. And you were already shown that the public was calling for the Wills fight.

The Jeannette fight was to be an exhibition.


He didn't want to fight these guys before he was champion or after. All of your excuses and implanting in their heads what makes sense in order for you to justify the unwillingness to fight doesn't change what is so obvious to see based on their actions and what they actually said.

Again, what reason did he have to deny Joe Jeannette if he was willing to fight ANY white man? I'm still not sure how you reconcile that. Don't tell me the people weren't with it because the crowd booed him relentlessly.



You guys need to stop trying to shift blame to Rickard and Kearns and worry about who their boss was, in my opinion.