Jack Johnson on the Ketchel Punch

[travestyny]

I've heard the rumors about what went down during this fight, but I'd never heard Jack Johnson himself give his side of what happened in this fight. I ran across this newspaper article regarding the punch that floored him in the Stanley Ketchel fight.

He claims that he decided to carry Ketchel to make the "moving pictures" more desirable.

Claims he told a cornerman not to be alarmed if he will be down sometime during the fight.

Claims that when the punch found its mark, he knew it was the perfect punch for him to take a dive on.

Claims he watched the ref and Ketchel closely, the ref so that he wouldn't count him out, and Ketchel because he was maneuvering himself on the canvas and waiting for Ketchel to occupy a certain angle that would allow him to catch him good when he got up from the canvas.

Says he pretended to be foggy but was playing possum, and knocked Ketchel out with a right uppercut.

What do you guys think? Was the punch legit or do you think Johnson was acting in order to get more movie sales?

It's at the ending of the fight.

[Dr. Z]

I've heard the rumors about what went down during this fight, but I'd never heard Jack Johnson himself give his side of what happened in this fight. I ran across this newspaper article regarding the punch that floored him in the Stanley Ketchel fight.

He claims that he decided to carry Ketchel to make the "moving pictures" more desirable.

Claims he told a cornerman not to be alarmed if he will be down sometime during the fight.

Claims that when the punch found its mark, he knew it was the perfect punch for him to take a dive on.

Claims he watched the ref and Ketchel closely, the ref so that he wouldn't count him out, and Ketchel because he was maneuvering himself on the canvas and waiting for Ketchel to occupy a certain angle that would allow him to catch him good when he got up from the canvas.

Says he pretended to be foggy but was playing possum, and knocked Ketchel out with a right uppercut.

What do you guys think? Was the punch legit or do you think Johnson was acting in order to get more movie sales?

It's a legit punch that landed near Johnson upper ear region. You can see it threw off Johnson's balance by the way he got up, and fell down again after scoring his own knockdown. The he rest on the ropes, a sign that his legs where not all there.

Johnson was hurt and admitted it to the NY Times, who said he won while being dazed.

Johnson liked to play with the over matched like Burns, Ketchel, or Flynn, Neither fight was " fixed " It was just his way and style.

The story of the fix came after Ketchel's death, not before.

During the action, Ketchel took a beating, and Johnson himself was marked up.

A report from the NY Times:

A report from the New York Times - Oct, 17 - 1909 gives the account -

Round One - " The champion scored almost immediately with a HARD left"

Round Two - "In a clinch Ketchel uppercut HARD to the jaw with his left, this angered the champion."....Ketchel's face showed grim determination as he took his corner"

Round Three ( Missing )

Round Four - Ketchel missed a TERRIFIC right...it was a close shave...and missed him barely an inch"

Round Five - "Johnson then sent Ketchel's head back with two straight lefts to the nose"

Round Six - " Ketchel was met with two lefts that started the blood flowing..."

Round Seven - "Ketchel used the...shoulder as a mat with which to stop the flowing blood from his nostrils"

"Ketchel swung his left with TERRIFIC force and caught the champion solidly on the jaw, raising a big lump that was perceptible to the spectators."

Round Eight - "Ketchel worked in a HARD right uppercut to the jaw"...."Ketchel missed a TERRIFIC right-swing and almost went through the ropes from the force of his effort"

Round Ten - "...Johnson getting Ketchel against the ropes, sent a right wallop to the stomach and Ketchel winced..."

Round Eleven - "Ketchel's face was badly battered..."

[travestyny]

It's a legit punch that landed near Johnson upper ear region. You can see it threw off Johnson's balance by the way he got up, and fell down again after scoring his own knockdown. The he rest on the ropes, a sign that his legs where not all there.

Johnson was hurt and admitted it to the NY Times, who said he won while being dazed.

Johnson liked to play with the over matched like Burns, Ketchel, or Flynn, Neither fight was " fixed " It was just his way and style.

The story of the fix came after Ketchel's death, not before.

During the action, Ketchel took a beating, and Johnson himself was marked up.

A report from the NY Times:

A report from the New York Times - Oct, 17 - 1909 gives the account -

Round One - " The champion scored almost immediately with a HARD left"

Round Two - "In a clinch Ketchel uppercut HARD to the jaw with his left, this angered the champion."....Ketchel's face showed grim determination as he took his corner"

Round Three ( Missing )

Round Four - Ketchel missed a TERRIFIC right...it was a close shave...and missed him barely an inch"

Round Five - "Johnson then sent Ketchel's head back with two straight lefts to the nose"

Round Six - " Ketchel was met with two lefts that started the blood flowing..."

Round Seven - "Ketchel used the...shoulder as a mat with which to stop the flowing blood from his nostrils"

"Ketchel swung his left with TERRIFIC force and caught the champion solidly on the jaw, raising a big lump that was perceptible to the spectators."

Round Eight - "Ketchel worked in a HARD right uppercut to the jaw"...."Ketchel missed a TERRIFIC right-swing and almost went through the ropes from the force of his effort"

Round Ten - "...Johnson getting Ketchel against the ropes, sent a right wallop to the stomach and Ketchel winced..."

Round Eleven - "Ketchel's face was badly battered..."

Well it's no surprise that the story of a fix came after Ketchel's death. He died within a year.

I don't know. Me looking at the fight, it appears to me that Johnson had an easy go of it. Just to make it clear, I don't always believe what Johnson says. No way the Willard fight was fixed.

But this one, I think it is most likely he played up this punch just for the drama.

[billeau2]

Well it's no surprise that the story of a fix came after Ketchel's death. He died within a year.

I don't know. Me looking at the fight, it appears to me that Johnson had an easy go of it. Just to make it clear, I don't always believe what Johnson says. No way the Willard fight was fixed.

But this one, I think it is most likely he played up this punch just for the drama.

Little details! (Ketchel deceased in a year) lol. I think it was somewhere in the middle... I think Johnson was somewhat intentional, but not to the point of "telling my corner if I went down...yada yada" and certainly it sounds like hyperbole to suggest he was adjusting his position on the ground. BUT I do think Johnson followed a plan, and even modified some of the ring activities to suit a nice filming.

Also, while I do not think Johnson took a dive in the Willard fight, I do think he may have been looking for a place to fall, so to speak, knowing he was running on empty. There are reports he asked his wife to leave because he knew he was having problems... Its possible, and ending the fight as graceful as possible would make sense for anyone with a concern for self image.

[travestyny]

Little details! (Ketchel deceased in a year) lol. I think it was somewhere in the middle... I think Johnson was somewhat intentional, but not to the point of "telling my corner if I went down...yada yada" and certainly it sounds like hyperbole to suggest he was adjusting his position on the ground. BUT I do think Johnson followed a plan, and even modified some of the ring activities to suit a nice filming.

Also, while I do not think Johnson took a dive in the Willard fight, I do think he may have been looking for a place to fall, so to speak, knowing he was running on empty. There are reports he asked his wife to leave because he knew he was having problems... Its possible, and ending the fight as graceful as possible would make sense for anyone with a concern for self image.

Yea, it was the second time I read someone say this only came out after Ketchel died. I think Queenie mentioned it first. Honestly just seems like these guys have something against Johnson for some reason.

I've always thought something seemed off about the Ketchel knock down. It appears that Johnson begins to go down before it even lands. That could be him just reacting and beginning to duck too late...could be him ducking into the punch landing where he wants it to...could be him knowing it would land and just deciding to drop. Who really knows, right? But the whole getting up kinda groggy and roll on the ground...lol. I never really bought it honestly. He looked pretty damn spritely suddenly when he gave the knockout blow.

But yea, I tend to agree with you on Willard. It was expected that Johnson would gas, and he did. I think once that happened and he knew he was cooked, he relented in his own way. He was only going to take punishment from there on out. Seems many people expected the fight to go exactly that way, including Willard.

[billeau2]

Yea, it was the second time I read someone say this only came out after Ketchel died. I think Queenie mentioned it first. Honestly just seems like these guys have something against Johnson for some reason.

I've always thought something seemed off about the Ketchel knock down. It appears that Johnson begins to go down before it even lands. That could be him just reacting and beginning to duck too late...could be him ducking into the punch landing where he wants it to...could be him knowing it would land and just deciding to drop. Who really knows, right? But the whole getting up kinda groggy and roll on the ground...lol. I never really bought it honestly. He looked pretty damn spritely suddenly when he gave the knockout blow.

But yea, I tend to agree with you on Willard. It was expected that Johnson would gas, and he did. I think once that happened and he knew he was cooked, he relented in his own way. He was only going to take punishment from there on out. Seems many people expected the fight to go exactly that way, including Willard.

Johnson may have dived... on that issue specifically I have not looked at the actual alleged knockdown in any detail. I didn't address that above.

Regarding the Willard fight: The ability to pace oneself was a fundamental reason fighters did not come in jacked, with extra weight... muscle weighing more than fat. It was a real consideration in preclassical boxing and gave a lighter opponent many advantages. I say this because a man like Johnson, much less Willard who was already over 200 pounds, fighting today, could easily fight over 200 pounds.

[travestyny]

Johnson may have dived... on that issue specifically I have not looked at the actual alleged knockdown in any detail. I didn't address that above.

Regarding the Willard fight: The ability to pace oneself was a fundamental reason fighters did not come in jacked, with extra weight... muscle weighing more than fat. It was a real consideration in preclassical boxing and gave a lighter opponent many advantages. I say this because a man like Johnson, much less Willard who was already over 200 pounds, fighting today, could easily fight over 200 pounds.

That's a good point. There should be a video of the fight posted.

It does seem like he might have shifted to the left after getting up to get a good angle on the shot. I wish there was a different angle on the shot that got him sent down.

It's the ending of the fight.

[billeau2]

That's a good point. There should be a video of the fight posted.

It does seem like he might have shifted to the left after getting up to get a good angle on the shot. I wish there was a different angle on the shot that got him sent down.

It's the ending of the fight.

Just took a look. Its hard to see any point of contact for the punch... Taken at face value it does look like Johnson just goes down. In my case, I would need some angle to show the punch not landing ro confirm. Johnson does look deliberate as he gets up.

I sometimes get the feeling Johnson, though claiming to want to punish, is being merciful lol... That punch he unleashes was scary, he really did not seem to go after ketchel like that until ketchel hit him with that shot. Johnson was an interesting character. he could be very self centered, and at other times a real nice guy.

[travestyny]

Just took a look. Its hard to see any point of contact for the punch... Taken at face value it does look like Johnson just goes down. In my case, I would need some angle to show the punch not landing ro confirm. Johnson does look deliberate as he gets up.

I sometimes get the feeling Johnson, though claiming to want to punish, is being merciful lol... That punch he unleashes was scary, he really did not seem to go after ketchel like that until ketchel hit him with that shot. Johnson was an interesting character. he could be very self centered, and at other times a real nice guy.

I feel the same way. I mean he really unloaded on the dude. Claims he knocked out some teeth and had one embedded in his glove. But afterwards, said that he and Ketchel became like best friends. lol

[billeau2]

I feel the same way. I mean he really unloaded on the dude. Claims he knocked out some teeth and had one embedded in his glove. But afterwards, said that he and Ketchel became like best friends. lol

Lol back in those days punching each other's lights out was the foundation for a geniune friendship.... So T... All I can think about is how tough the women must have been. In a society where friendship was gained through punchout can you imagine what foreplay was like!??