Could Conn beat Johnson?

[Dr. Z]

Johnson fought one like Conn in Jack O'Brien. After 6 rounds, some ring observers felt O'Brien was the better, others Johnson. All agree it was close. Johnson wasin his prime, O'Brien slightly past his. The bough at box rec is a draw.

Since Conn had a pretty good chin at his weight, and Johnson is not a Joe Louis like puncher, this one could go to the Pittsburgh kid.

IMO 50.50

[Dynamite76]

Think Johnson would win a good 15 round decision by a good margin. Conn just picked on the right heavyweight at the right time to mess with. Jack wasn't the one.

[Willie Pep 229]

Sounds like in the bolded line, you're ultimately saying, that the best version of Johnson beats Conn (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, its obvious that any boxer or athlete that goes into another era weather forward or back, would be in a "mass of confusion". I'm sure fighters todays would be thrown off badly by tactics and situations from back then, that would effect their game.

What if a boxer today was pushed into a time machine and went back to the early 1900's, and found out that he had to fight up to 20 or more rounds, fought on the inside almost the entire fight without being separated, defend his title multiple times a month, his opponent didn't have to go back to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown, purses look like chump change compared to what he's making now, not have access to the best workout equipment, nutrition etc??

No I don't believe I said that. When we say 'at his best' we're usually talking about a hungry fighter, at prime age, in ready condition; each has his own apex.

I am saying take Johnson at his best but in the FIRST time out with Conn, would be out-classed.

To say that Johnson then learns how to beat that particular man (in this case Conn) isn't necessarily Johnson at his best.

When we make up theses fictional match-ups I usually view it as if we threw both fighters into Sherman and Mr. Peabody's 'way-back machine' and they then come out fighting, as is. I am not sure how one is to approach it.

The general point I was trying to make is that technique had progressed so much during that fifty year period that any of the great 1910 fighters would have found Conn overwhelming (until they learned how to deal with those NEW techniques.)

It's really just one more thing wrong with these fantasy dead-men match-ups.

[slicksouthpaw16]

No I don't believe I said that. When we say 'at his best' we're usually talking about a hungry fighter, at prime age, in ready condition; each has his own apex.

I am saying take Johnson at his best but in the FIRST time out with Conn, would be out-classed.

You said that my explanation was not what you were saying, then you said exactly what I did in your second, bolded paragraph. I see fantasy match ups being one fight with both boxers in their absolute peak, not a multi fight series. I feel like we overthink when we start mentioning getting into time machines, era adjustments etc.

To say that Johnson then learns how to beat that particular man (in this case Conn) isn't necessarily Johnson at his best.

When we make up theses fictional match-ups I usually view it as if we threw both fighters into Sherman and Mr. Peabody's 'way-back machine' and they then come out fighting, as is. I am not sure how one is to approach it.

The general point I was trying to make is that technique had progressed so much during that fifty year period that any of the great 1910 fighters would have found Conn overwhelming (until they learned how to deal with those NEW techniques.)

It's really just one more thing wrong with these fantasy dead-men match-ups.

I disagree with the bolded statement being relevant to Jack Johnson, as he was already ahead of his time as it was. Also, could you definitively say that Billy Conn was better overall than someone like Gene Tunney who fought in Johnsons era? Conn may have been a bit faster movement wise, but I don't see anything on film that suggests he was a vastly more advance boxer, and Johnson fought years longer than Tunney did. I don't see Johnson being as lost and clueless as you're suggesting going up against a smaller, mover like Conn who in his prime, would be considerably outweighed vs Johnson who's a rough, strong inside fighter with high ring IQ.

I feel like 99 percent of Conn fantasy match ups are inspired by the first Louis fight. I had Louis only down slightly going into the 13 and even still, Conn ended up getting flattened by the brown bomber. Conns best weight was around 170.

[The Old LefHook]

Connie will come in at about 176 lbs., Johnny 201 lbs.

[Willie Pep 229]

Connie will come in at about 176 lbs., Johnny 201 lbs.

True that for Conn. He would likely choose to remain at his LHW limit and refuse to bulk up for the fight, as he refused to bulk up for the Louis fight. Billy recognized that speed was his best asset (thus causing Louis to quip back his famous response 'He can run but . . . .")

[them_apples]

Sounds like in the bolded line, you're ultimately saying, that the best version of Johnson beats Conn (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, its obvious that any boxer or athlete that goes into another era weather forward or back, would be in a "mass of confusion". I'm sure fighters todays would be thrown off badly by tactics and situations from back then, that would effect their game.

What if a boxer today was pushed into a time machine and went back to the early 1900's, and found out that he had to fight up to 20 or more rounds, fought on the inside almost the entire fight without being separated, defend his title multiple times a month, his opponent didn't have to go back to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown, purses look like chump change compared to what he's making now, not have access to the best workout equipment, nutrition etc??

and use 4-6 use gloves without the thumb attached, grabbing the shoulders and clinching was half the sport. Johnson would grab conn in the clinch and hold and hit likely.

[The Old LefHook]

Conn will slap that giant negro across the chops good, if he tries to hit and hold. Then scold him in his important white man's voice for the capper.