Whose their second best win though?

[Rick Taylor]

Douglas is the only one that jumps up at me

He beat up Berbick and Mccall in their primes, right before he massacred Tyson. Good win streak for a guy like Buster.

[aboutfkntime]

My Bad. and as I wrote, I think the Frazier question was nonsense to begin with, as he is not overrated.

As to the GGG question, I am a fan of his; but I dont think Lemieux is second best win, I would put Geale and Murray ahead of him. But I still don't think that spread of talent is as big as the difference between Ali and Ellis (Frazier's best two), or Hearns and Whoever you think is Barkley's second best win.

not sure I agree with Geale, but great point about Murray... he was a better win than Lemieux... Quarry, Mathis, Foster, even Bonavena... are all better than Murray... I just think the general level of competition back then was much better than the guys Golovkin selected...

I am having a similar discussion on the other thread about Jermain Taylor

beating Hopkins TWICE, was outstanding... very few fighters beat a genuine ATG twice... and the guy I am arguing with is crying about it LMAO

he needed Taylor to do it again, despite the fact he already did it TWICE

I just think guys like that will never stop, they will always cry about something... always need more... as they happily/blindly support fighters who never came close to wins of that caliber

your career is reviewed using ENTIRE body of work, which is why Taylor is not a ATG... but we certainly saw how capable he was, at his very best, in those two fights... that is my point about measuring his "ceiling"

[Rick Taylor]

not sure i agree with geale, but great point about murray... He was a better win than lemieux... Quarry, mathis, foster, even bonavena... Are all better than murray... I just think the general level of competition back then was much better than the guys golovkin selected...

I am having a similar discussion on the other thread about jermain taylor

beating hopkins twice, was outstanding... Very few fighters beat a genuine atg twice... And the guy i am arguing with is crying about it lmao

he needed taylor to do it again, despite the fact he already did it twice

i just think guys like that will never stop, they will always cry about something... Always need more... As they happily/blindly support fighters who never came close to wins of that caliber

your career is reviewed using entire body of work, which is why taylor is not a atg... But we certainly saw how capable he was, at his very best, in those two fights... That is my point about measuring his "ceiling"

ydksab 😆😆😆😆😆

[billeau2]

I remember once hearing someone argue that Joe Frazier was 'overrated' and one of their main points was, "name his second best win." Implying that outside of Ali he didn't beat anyone. And while I may not agree with Frazier being overrated, it got me thinking, how many big name fighters have a resume with their top scalp being far better than their next best?

Frazier's best win is clearly Ali, his second is probably Jimmy Ellis, thats a fairly decent drop. The other fighter I thought of was Iran Barkley, he beat Hearns but whose his next best win?

I was wondering what other fighters you feel fit this mold? With the top win on his resume being far superior to the next.

Ellis is chronically underrated. Excellent fighter. Frazier also fought tough fighters, like Bonevera, Foster, etc. Just wanted to put things in context and make the point that sometimes your best scalp is not as important as how high the tide has risen... because a rising tide lifts all boats.

When someone like Hagler or Frazier were fighting the general level of comp (the tide so to speak) was high. Was Antifermo or Hamsho, a great scalp compared to the likes of Hearns? No, but they were solid fighters who could make many so called champs, cry running home to mama.

Frazier's greatness was as much as the thrilling trilogy with Ali, the way he handled excellent fighters... Like if I said to you "I know a one armed, visually compromised fighter... not much reach, but will impose himself on the likes of Chuvalo, Bonavena, Jones, and Quarry! Not to mention Foster..." that is IMO more impressive than the Ali trilogy. I mean stylistically? Frazier was a nightmare for Ali... It stands to reason how he was succesful, without diminishing the fiat Joe achieved.

As far as fighters who has that special touch for other greats, and was otherwise not fighting so many great fighters, maybe Jimmy Young? He arguably beat both Ali and Foreman, but to my knowledge did not fight premier comp otherwise, and/or lost to lesser fighters.

[billeau2]

Douglas is the only one that jumps up at me

Your right and I am wrong... I tried to make a case for jimmy Young, I mean he lost to and drew with other guys like Lyle, Shavers, Norton, etc... But he clearly was competative, and fought great comp. Douglas is a great answer.

[QueensburyRules]

I remember once hearing someone argue that Joe Frazier was 'overrated' and one of their main points was, "name his second best win." Implying that outside of Ali he didn't beat anyone. And while I may not agree with Frazier being overrated, it got me thinking, how many big name fighters have a resume with their top scalp being far better than their next best?

Frazier's best win is clearly Ali, his second is probably Jimmy Ellis, thats a fairly decent drop. The other fighter I thought of was Iran Barkley, he beat Hearns but whose his next best win?

I was wondering what other fighters you feel fit this mold? With the top win on his resume being far superior to the next.

- -Other than showy names in dubious fights combined with conversion to NOI and big mouth, Joe actually had the better 60s record than Ali, so there's that...

[Marchegiano]

He beat up Berbick and Mccall in their primes, right before he massacred Tyson. Good win streak for a guy like Buster.

He didn't ask about good wins he asked about drastic steps down. McCall and Berbick are far from Tyson.

Dumbass

[Rick Taylor]

He didn't ask about good wins he asked about drastic steps down. McCall and Berbick are far from Tyson.

Dumbass

Bullshit

Why did they go points then? Whereas Tyson was knocked out and almost killed?

And Mccall ko Lennox. Something Tyson could never do.

[Marchegiano]

Bullshit

Why did they go points then? Whereas Tyson was knocked out and almost killed?

And Mccall ko Lennox. Something Tyson could never do.

Tokyo Douglas.

That's um, ****ing ****** . Because Berbick went 12 with Douglas? Berbick went 2 with Mike.

McCall Lost the NABF to Tucker who Mike Tyson beat up.

McCall lost the WBC to Bruno who Mike Tyson beat up.

Clearly Mike Tyson was head and shoulders above McCall.


Lennox? He's a bit of a ***** who waited on the sidelines for Mike to get fat and about as good as he is presently. Mike, Evander, and Lennox are all amatuers together, Mike and Evander turn pro around the same time, Lewis takes his time though, waits, and after he turns pro he *****foots around with garbage fighters like McCall who lose every time they step up and manages to **** that up too. Lennox got big boy pants in the 2000s because he's a *****. Lennox never defended the undisputed crown because he's a *****. Lennox got KTFO by two lesser champions because he's a *****.

2000 Mike is not the man who put Berbick down in 2

[F l i c k e r]

who cares ?

his argument totally missed the point

the question regarding greatness is... how high was his ceiling?

the answer in Frasier's case is... Ali

coughing... spluttering... then blurting out... b,b,b,b,but, who else? ... is crawling up your own ass looking for excuses

prime Ali, is the answer to that question...which is a ATG answer

Why does that trigger you so much?

It's a worthy discussion point really.

Because it's just a complicated work around into the time honored question, "What does his resume look like?"