What Were Harry Wills' Best Wins?

[Dr. Z]

Come on, bruh. How many minutes of the Firpo fight did you see?

If you have these full fights, post them up, because I've only managed to see edited pieces of two rounds against Firpo. In fact, I remember these three fights, along with training footage, all being packaged into 11 minutes. And mind you, Wills was 34-37 in these fights.

And we already know that Wills was busy demanding his title shot instead of entertaining more elimination matches. He already participated in one elimination bout and won, and was still sidestepped by Dempsey.

I wouldn't say he was risk adverse. I'd say he felt entitled to his shot for the championship.



If you go back and look at what was happening at the time, there were beginning to be some certain names popping up a lot when Godfrey came on the scene in about 1924. Firpo was the fighter that came up a lot and was being considered for a rematch with Dempsey, and that explains why Wills chose him, and got the win. He thought that would make it clear yet again that he deserves his shot, but still he didn't get it. There was also Jack Renault who beat Godfrey in '24 and in the same month Wills publicly stated he wanted to fight him, but said he thought Renault wouldn't want to fight him. There was Charles Weinart who beat another name that pops up a lot who was supposed to be on the same track as Firpo, Quintin Rojas, and also beat Firpo, and was coming off two wins against Sharkey, one immediately before Wills fought Weinart and beat him. The fight with Weinart was part of some sort of series in New York where the winner was supposed by promoters to be the next up for Dempsey.

All of these names were popping up. Some of which Wills took out, some of which were taken out by Wills victims, yet Wills was still there waiting for his title shot.

Hello there. Unfortunately some fights in my collection are not for uploading as those were the rules I agreed to when I obtained them.

Firpo looks awful, and Wills pretty average outside of the knockdown. Will looks pretty poor vs. Madden and that was was before Firpo. How far past it was he for these fights/ tough to tell, the Press didn't say he was slowing down at the time.

Dempsey if he wanted to could have fought Wills in many areas of the world, Wills was avoided plain and simple.

Wills should have fought Godfrey, he declined, and he didn't want Tunney either.

[travestyny]

Hello there. Unfortunately some fights in my collection are not for uploading as those were the rules I agreed to when I obtained them.

Firpo looks awful, and Wills pretty average outside of the knockdown. Will looks pretty poor vs. Madden and that was was before Firpo. How far past it was he for these fights/ tough to tell, the Press didn't say he was slowing down at the time.

Dempsey if he wanted to could have fought Wills in many areas of the world, Wills was avoided plain and simple.

Wills should have fought Godfrey, he declined, and he didn't want Tunney either.

Madden was 3 months before, brotha. lol

So you have these fights, and you are going to keep them from us? Shame shame shame on you!


All I'm saying is that it's understandable why he wanted his shot. A lot of the talk about Tunney happened when he was waiting for Dempsey to honor the contract that he signed. I can fully understand why he didn't feel he had to entertain a Tunney fight when he should have been fighting for the title. But of course you are welcome to your opinion about it, brotha.

Some of those fights there were certainly people saying he was declining, but you know how it is. Everyone has an opinion, so we can take it with a grain of salt.

But think about this. The earliest fight you say you have film of...Wills was 35 with 95 bouts on him. Compare that to the man he is most often linked with. Dempsey completed his career at 32 with 73 bouts. Obviously I think Wills was still competitive, but I doubt these bouts show him at his absolute best.

Respect to you. I've enjoyed your posts around this forum. You do bring lots of knowledge!

[billeau2]

You are right. I found and bumped the thread. There were fights McVey had with two Ju Jitsu artists!

Definitely, I could see JJohnson using his grapplying skills in there. Would be very interesting.

As for the Willard fight, I think you're right. Everyone knew he wasn't conditioned to go the distance, and it was obvious that he was going to try to get Willard out of there quickly. Willard was smart in his approach. He lost all of the first 13 rounds or so I think it went..but he wasn't exactly trying to win them I would imagine. Just waiting for Jack to wear down.

yeah I saw that about the other fight. These fights were especially common on Hawai, because there was a real polyglot of martial artists. Despite this? most mixed matches were Ju Jitsu versus boxing and Ju Jitsu had a hyperbolic reputation. From what I have found about these fights, Ju Jitsu won more... but there was a principle were the rules could slightly favor any participant's approach and this principle was instumental in determining a winner. Today's Danzen Ryu Ju Jitsu, a hybrid, Judo/ Ju Jitsu style came out of that area... henry Osaka the founder having been in more than a few of these matches.

In a strange irony I actually think Willard's win honors Jack... It shows that at that time, just like today, even greatness had to respect the professional level where any known weakness will be exploited. Just as a rising tide raises all boats, it means the quality of fighting man back then was every bit as capable of exploiting any percieved advantage.

[billeau2]

Wills best wins are Langford and McVey,

I have seen Willis on film 3 times, and he disappoints in each appearance.

Firpo, Madden, and Uzcdun. He's not as powerful or quick a you night think.

On Wills, he was risk averse too. He declined meeting fellow black contender George Godfrey several times and said no thanks to a match with Gene Tunney. While this doesn't absolve Dempsey for never giving Wills a shot, Wills was risk adverse too.

One does not hear Godfrey mentioned much these days... But he was another big heavyweight with skill and talent.

[billeau2]

I am not doing research for these, though, I probably should. So, off the cuff and from memory this is how I feel it breaks down.


Norfolk - p4p king of the era - colored champion

Langford - Or maybe he is the p4p king - colored champion

McVea - Second Sam has an argument for p4p - colored champion

Jeanette - Still a badass HW - colored champion

Clark - Another p4p great - colored champion

Firpo - A good win, might should be lower actually but was a solid contender with good wins. - SA champion

Tate - Same as Firpo. I may be overrating him, but, even if I am it's not like Tate was bad. - colored champion

Denver - Solid contender for any man of the era even if he was aging - colored champion

Meehan - Solid contender, could come to win or just come - PC champion

Dewey - Decent fighter of the era, Dewey's one of them who is more dangerous than his record would have you believe. Not much of a boxer though, probably should have him lower but when Wills fought him Wills was a pup.

Lester - Whooped Dempsey, not the greatest fighter but he is the one black man Dempsey fought and Dempsey lost that fight.

Battling - Drew Johnson, seemed happy to do a favor for anyone afterward and was only a hit and miss contender prior, but we was ranked high in Europe because he went to Europe and won. He earned his title shot the same way Pulev has today. Maybe we don't like the names he took out but he did take out the names the IBU gave him then took a draw from Jack...even if it is suspect.

Gunboat - Solid as **** contender, I just felt he was old by then

Cotton - Not the greatest rivalry to have but Cotton was a pretty good little fighter. Despite his being used up by every colored champion who outweighed him Cotton still managed to pick up decent wins here and there.

Fulton - got passed around like a rag doll, but there's a reason everyone fought him

Miller - By all accounts pretty much just a can, but, Miller has these oddly good wins here and there.

Everett - The end of a career that seemed to start right and went down quick. Everett's hardly worth mention really. some kind of champion though if I remember right.






So, again, ranking wise grain of salt, but the names I do believe are solid. I don't think Wills ever fought Carpentier, but, even if he did, **** Carpentier.

One general conclusion I have drawn from researching (I don't pay homage to the proper use of the word 'research', more like 'tinkering' lol) is that the general quality of fighting men was superb. Even the worse fighters won against some of the best because everyone had baseline skills. This ties into my observation about fellow ATG's at the heavyweight level.

[billeau2]

Hello there. Unfortunately some fights in my collection are not for uploading as those were the rules I agreed to when I obtained them.

Firpo looks awful, and Wills pretty average outside of the knockdown. Will looks pretty poor vs. Madden and that was was before Firpo. How far past it was he for these fights/ tough to tell, the Press didn't say he was slowing down at the time.

Dempsey if he wanted to could have fought Wills in many areas of the world, Wills was avoided plain and simple.

Wills should have fought Godfrey, he declined, and he didn't want Tunney either.

I actually think avoiding Tunney would be a natural instinct related to self preservation lol. Very tough fight, along the lines of Greb.

[travestyny]

yeah I saw that about the other fight. These fights were especially common on Hawai, because there was a real polyglot of martial artists. Despite this? most mixed matches were Ju Jitsu versus boxing and Ju Jitsu had a hyperbolic reputation. From what I have found about these fights, Ju Jitsu won more... but there was a principle were the rules could slightly favor any participant's approach and this principle was instumental in determining a winner. Today's Danzen Ryu Ju Jitsu, a hybrid, Judo/ Ju Jitsu style came out of that area... henry Osaka the founder having been in more than a few of these matches.

In a strange irony I actually think Willard's win honors Jack... It shows that at that time, just like today, even greatness had to respect the professional level where any known weakness will be exploited. Just as a rising tide raises all boats, it means the quality of fighting man back then was every bit as capable of exploiting any percieved advantage.

Good post! From the reports I read, the fight went how many expected it to go. They knew Jack was disinterested and on his way out. I suppose the reason that they went for the long distance fight was to make it even moreso likely he wouldn't leave the winner. I suppose he felt confident he could get the big guy out of there. But the writing was on the wall at this point. He wasn't training seriously and he was no spring chicken.

[travestyny]

One does not hear Godfrey mentioned much these days... But he was another big heavyweight with skill and talent.

Apparently he was a protege of....Jack Johnson, from what I've read. Read an article earlier that Jack took him to a venue and had him jump in the ring to show what he had for 2 rounders. Didn't work out so well for him that time, but I suppose he got better. That was back in about 1923 or 24 I believe. Looks like he fought until 1937.

[billeau2]

Apparently he was a protege of....Jack Johnson, from what I've read. Read an article earlier that Jack took him to a venue and had him jump in the ring to show what he had for 2 rounders. Didn't work out so well for him that time, but I suppose he got better. That was back in about 1923 or 24 I believe. Looks like he fought until 1937.

When we look at the Black Fighters guild, so to speak... we have slightly different conditions for evaluating talent, and to me this is one of those "gems" researchers asking about hypothetical matches should take advantage of... Here we have a situation with what is, essentially, a very limited, very talented pool of fighters, who know intimately the strengths and weaknesses of each other.

So what does this prove? Lets look at Godfrey. He had a bad outing, might have had others prior too, but eventually? he got some wins. It would seem that the general level of talent made fighters like McVay, able to get victories against fighters considered much more talented. As a matter of fact we see a real random sample when we look at who beat who in this pool.

This suggests to me that eventually if fighters fought each other repeatedly, we would see some fighters, not initially considered great, beat other great fighters...I use the word "great" because to do this a fighter would have to be good enough to exploit certain things and win against guys who were ATG's.

Of course the converse applies: Charley Burley destroyed Archie Moore... What if they had fought more times? I would think Archie would do better.

These limited pools can tell us a lot IMO.

[ShoulderRoll]

yeah I saw that about the other fight. These fights were especially common on Hawai, because there was a real polyglot of martial artists. Despite this? most mixed matches were Ju Jitsu versus boxing and Ju Jitsu had a hyperbolic reputation. From what I have found about these fights, Ju Jitsu won more... but there was a principle were the rules could slightly favor any participant's approach and this principle was instumental in determining a winner. Today's Danzen Ryu Ju Jitsu, a hybrid, Judo/ Ju Jitsu style came out of that area... henry Osaka the founder having been in more than a few of these matches.

In a strange irony I actually think Willard's win honors Jack... It shows that at that time, just like today, even greatness had to respect the professional level where any known weakness will be exploited. Just as a rising tide raises all boats, it means the quality of fighting man back then was every bit as capable of exploiting any percieved advantage.

It's Henry Okazaki. Not Osaka.

Danzan Ryu was Wally Jay's foundation from which he created Small Circle Ju Jutsu.