Jack Dempsey's best wins?

[travestyny]

Thats a good question! If he was on the general circuit it would be commensurate, but he fought fellow great Black fighters, many of whom were ATG's.

I think that the circuit for Black fighters definitely had some of the most talented fighters... Murderer's row, Burley, Marshall, etc another example of this...

Two comments: By fighting each other extensively some of the way competition is evaluated has to account for this.

We also have to be careful how we look at comparisons: Langford Jeanette, McVea all talented... no question about it. Jeanette, a true heavyweight, Langford, a guy who was able to fight up... McVea's size alludes me...

We must keep in mind these guys fought often, which has an affect on how we evaluate them as comp... not necessarily a valued judgement, just a consideration.

I have no problem saying Wills had a better resume talent wise than Dempsey.

I think that's a very fair assessment.

[GhostofDempsey]

Compared to whom? What heavyweight aside from Ali had a good resume?

Would Louis, who defended the title a fantastic amount of times have a better resume? How about Johnson? Marciano? considering WHEN he fought whom he fought, and other factors? How about Liston? Tyson? Lewis?

"Good" is a relative term and cannot be applied uniformly the same way in all divisions. One thing that made Ali so great was his ability to have fellow ATG's in his midst. By and large the heavyweight division operates differently than other divisions with regard to competition.

Notice he had no answer. Try comparing Dempsey’s best wins to Jack Johnson’s, while Johnson was fighting much smaller opponents and opponents like McVey and Jeannette when they had less than ten or twenty fights, or washed up names like Jeffries and Fitz. I may just start a thread to discuss his best wins.

Marciano had Charles and Walcott, neither of whom were at their best. Louis’ best wins were Schmeling and Walcott. Holmes didn’t have any stand out wins, neither did Tyson, Wlad or Patterson.

We can dissect any HW champions wins, even Ali. Watching Dempsey on tape we see the transition from the old style stand up straight fighters to a more nuanced boxer puncher who ducked, weaved, feinted, and made himself a moving target. Watch some of his highlights and you’ll see similarities between him and Pernell Whitaker in their defensive game. I posted comparison videos on here once before.

I realize this thread was meant as a dog whistle for the usual suspects to come running in with their Dempsey hate. As if we needed an umpteenth thread for that. But it showcases the ignorance of the casuals who never read a boxing book in their life, or never stepped into a ring and answered the bell. Self proclaimed experts with PhDs from Google Univeristy.

[travestyny]

Notice he had no answer. Try comparing Dempsey’s best wins to Jack Johnson’s, while Johnson was fighting much smaller opponents and opponents like McVey and Jeannette when they had less than ten or twenty fights, or washed up names like Jeffries and Fitz. I may just start a thread to discuss his best wins.

Marciano had Charles and Walcott, neither of whom were at their best. Louis’ best wins were Schmeling and Walcott. Holmes didn’t have any stand out wins, neither did Tyson, Wlad or Patterson.

We can dissect any HW champions wins, even Ali. Watching Dempsey on tape we see the transition from the old style stand up straight fighters to a more nuanced boxer puncher who ducked, weaved, feinted, and made himself a moving target. Watch some of his highlights and you’ll see similarities between him and Pernell Whitaker in their defensive game. I posted comparison videos on here once before.

I realize this thread was meant as a dog whistle for the usual suspects to come running in with their Dempsey hate. As if we needed an umpteenth thread for that. But it showcases the ignorance of the casuals who never read a boxing book in their life, or never stepped into a ring and answered the bell. Self proclaimed experts with PhDs from Google Univeristy.

The nerve of this guy talking about dog whistles and Google University. Where is your PhD from? "My hurt wacist feewwings University?"

Imagine a guy that gets so butthurt about a Pac/Mayweather discussion that he has to run and bump his racist "Which black champion is the most overrated: the first black champion ever, the black champion often rated as the greatest of all time, or the black champion rated as the greatest boxer of our generation" thread. Either way, one of the great blacks gets to be attacked and wittle GwostofWimsy gets to feel good in his racist safe space


By the way, which is more overrated? Ferrari, Lamborghini, or Porsche?

[Marchegiano]

So what you have done is set up a comparison between fellow heavyweights... I have no problem with looking at that, it does not address the point I am making in this case. You are making a case based on specific fighters, who was a champion at the time, etc... But what about ATG fighters? how many of them are we talking about here? with the notable exception of Ali.

What if Robinson never beat a fellow ATG fighter? at his weight class? And who did Louis beat that was a fellow ATG heavyweight? I can answer that if you like...

Virtually all the great welter weight fighters, light weight fighters fought fellow ATG's at prime... Not happening in the heavyweight division. And champions are relative... Charley Burley never won a championship, but could beat the bejusus out of many welter weight champs...

Mayweather had a chance and never challenged a fellow ATG fighter at prime. That stands out for his legacy. We can certainly argue Dempsey's resume, but he beat fighters that we can compare to...oh lets say Liston. We can compare the level of talent he fought to the guys louis and Johnson fought...

the one caveat to this is something T has mentioned, and you have taken up... The talented black fighters that were not allowed to compete... it is a valid point IMO. No argument there, unless you want to say Wills would beat Dempsey because of it, or, unless you want to say Dempsey's comp was substandard to the degree that it defies comparison with other heavy weights.

****

I hate when I write a lot based on a misunderstanding. You're right, I did not actually address your points or implications but rather my own mistaken inferences.

[billeau2]

The nerve of this guy talking about dog whistles and Google University. Where is your PhD from? "My hurt wacist feewwings University?"

Imagine a guy that gets so butthurt about a Pac/Mayweather discussion that he has to run and bump his racist "Which black champion is the most overrated: the first black champion ever, the black champion often rated as the greatest of all time, or the black champion rated as the greatest boxer of our generation" thread. Either way, one of the great blacks gets to be attacked and wittle GwostofWimsy gets to feel good in his racist safe space


By the way, which is more overrated? Ferrari, Lamborghini, or Porsche?

You can have your Ferrari or Lamborghini... Ill take an old air cooled Porsche... or it's twin a Karma Ghai.

[billeau2]

****

I hate when I write a lot based on a misunderstanding. You're right, I did not actually address your points or implications but rather my own mistaken inferences.

Actually... I did make some references to some relative heavyweight resumes that I just read, so its my fault for the confusion... So we are going to make history here and have the first Dome battle demanding the opposite: "No I was wrong!!"

I do believe what I wrote to you... But I did make some comments about a relative "zone" for lack of a better term relating to most heavy weight resumes... I would say that a contributing factor for heavyweight resumes prior to Louis was the color line. Hence, as Travesty pointed his finger... and I concluded... Wills certainly had a better resume than Dempsey, because of fighting other Black fighters. Also within a zone where we look at heavyweights we can have a discussion about better and worse...

Listen If you have a sort of email you use, I sent you a PM, I want to get you this cookbook I wrote. I did not actually put it up on the net... something I had forgotten lol, but it is written and I cannot find a way to post it here since it is a PDF. I will try to post it here, but if you have an email you use I want to get you a copy of it. I never got around to posting it up, I still might, it is complete.

[billeau2]

Notice he had no answer. Try comparing Dempsey’s best wins to Jack Johnson’s, while Johnson was fighting much smaller opponents and opponents like McVey and Jeannette when they had less than ten or twenty fights, or washed up names like Jeffries and Fitz. I may just start a thread to discuss his best wins.

Marciano had Charles and Walcott, neither of whom were at their best. Louis’ best wins were Schmeling and Walcott. Holmes didn’t have any stand out wins, neither did Tyson, Wlad or Patterson.

We can dissect any HW champions wins, even Ali. Watching Dempsey on tape we see the transition from the old style stand up straight fighters to a more nuanced boxer puncher who ducked, weaved, feinted, and made himself a moving target. Watch some of his highlights and you’ll see similarities between him and Pernell Whitaker in their defensive game. I posted comparison videos on here once before.

I realize this thread was meant as a dog whistle for the usual suspects to come running in with their Dempsey hate. As if we needed an umpteenth thread for that. But it showcases the ignorance of the casuals who never read a boxing book in their life, or never stepped into a ring and answered the bell. Self proclaimed experts with PhDs from Google Univeristy.

Yes, one has to look at tape and cannot conclude that a heavyweight is better because of his comp. For example, I see no way Wills would have beat Dempsey... despite fighting from the same pool plus the premier black fighters of the day.

[travestyny]

You can have your Ferrari or Lamborghini... Ill take an old air cooled Porsche... or it's twin a Karma Ghai.

I had to look up Karma Ghia. Very nice indeed!!!

[GhostofDempsey]

Yes, one has to look at tape and cannot conclude that a heavyweight is better because of his comp. For example, I see no way Wills would have beat Dempsey... despite fighting from the same pool plus the premier black fighters of the day.

Wills, like Johnson, had a distinct size advantage over most of his opponents. He also had a style that was made for Dempsey. It’s unfortunate his people dropped the ball on making that fight. Aside from other social obstacles of the day.

[travestyny]

Wills, like Johnson, had a distinct size advantage over most of his opponents. He also had a style that was made for Dempsey. It’s unfortunate his people dropped the ball on making that fight. Aside from other social obstacles of the day.

LMAO. You wish.


What you mean is that it's unfortunate that Dempsey wanted absolutely NO PART of Wills. The man broke a contract that was more lucrative than the Tunney fight. So much for "social obstacles" when the public wanted the fight for years, the promoter followed the contract and was game, Wills was game, the money was present, and Dempsey ran away breaking the contract. How do you feel like a man when you have to lie to protect your feelings?

You yourself tried to argue that JJohnson ducked Langford when he refused to honor a contract for a whopping $5000. How you come to that conclusion and in the same breath claim Dempsey didn't duck Wills when he refused to honor a contract for $800,000 is beyond belief.

Stop lying on these great fighters' legacies. You should be ashamed of yourself as a hardcore boxing fan.