How long did it take for gloved boxing to incorporate the techniques we see today?

[Pugilist89]

Gloves were introduced later in Dempseys era as far as I'm aware.

How soon after this were the techniques modified to what we see today? What is the first elite, gloved boxing match that looks somewhat modern in terms of technique?

[HOUDINI563]

Gloves far predated Dempsey.

[Marchegiano]

Gloves in boxing, imo, is super interesting and doesn't get nearly enough attention. It isn't as straight forward as you'd expect.

It is another one of the subject that calls into question what is boxing. It is also one of the histories that directly connects modern sanctioned boxing to the bare knuckle era and why we see Pygmachis, Pyx, Figg, Broughton, LPRR, and such as father sports rather than some random disconnected fist fighting sports that existed prior to our current boxing. Everyone who knows me knows what time it is, we're going from 2020, to 1720, to just 20, then back to the 17s, then 18s, and maybe even some of the 19s.



We have a few figures to cover and some subject to touch on so let me get cracking:

So, firstly let us gloss over boxing authority history....actually this whole post is a gloss but this bit is super glossy; Figg was champ, promoter, trainer, manager, venue owner, deal maker etc. His students fought over control of boxing after he died, Jack Broughton won, we wrote the rules. So, in a way Figg, slack, pipes, etc inspired boxing but were kinda pre boxing sorts like Caesar and imperial Rome.

Jack Broughton wrote the rules for the sport that would follow the fight between himself and fellow figg student George Taylor, but, he also continued the tradition of being promoter, trainer, manager, so on.

Being the man as he was the lords and aristos wanted to learn to defend themselves from the baddest man in the kingdom.

Broughton was placed in a bad spot. He can't hardly lay into an aristocrat, especially the high up mugs, but he also can't have his lords think he is a pillow fisted powder puff. He has to hit them hard enough for them to have confidence in him but not so hard as to disfigure them.

This was something that did actually bother Jack and so he looked to the inspiration for his sport, the ancient Greco-Roman form of boxing known as Pygmachia. He looked into the purpose of the himantes and cestus and devised what he called mufflers from them based on what he saw on statues.

Okay, so now we have a few things. A connection from Ancient Greece to Jack Broughton rules boxing and a connection from gloves to sparring. What we do not have is a connection from gloves to prizefighter (excluding the Romans and Greeks of course) or a connection from sparring to training the fighter. Let me be clear, James Figg, Jack Broughton, and anyone from the era, did not spar for their benefit. It was not believed they would benefit from sparring until later. That takes more figures.

Next we have Daniel The *** Mendoza who did a ****load for boxing but for this story all we need to know is he is the guy who brought defense to the sport. Being a *** he was seen as a bit of an outsider by his community and depended on the support of subcultures. One of them being the on coming black fighter.

Mendoza(champ in 1780) trains Richmond who trains Molyneaux( champ in 1810) who makes Mendoza School boxing very famous when he forces England to cheat to keep Cribb as champion.

Will Fuller, who is a very forgettable HW title challenger also from the Moly/Cribb era, would retire into a trainer position and start to preach the good word of sparring in America around 1820. Like the champions before him, he trained rich folk in self defense, not fighters getting ready for a fight.

1840s would see the rise of black fighters and the black fighter scene. There were black fighters prior to 1840, but, not many, and no black industry. The closest thing to a pre-1840 black industry is the aforementioned Mendoza School. Molyneaux was massively famous, a lot of black fighters sought Richmond out after Tom vs Tom but by the 1840s is was too big for one man, gym, location. What I find interesting is the black fighters were sparring with gloves to prepare for fights rather than to get rich...well yet. Black fighters would look to learn defense and not get hurt while learning it, they'd spar one another to test their ability to duck or weave etc.

By the 1850s Aaron Molyneaux Hewlett had a very successful career despite having hardly any prizefights because he was a high level spar-er who trained rich folk pretty much exactly like Fuller. He wasn't getting ready for fights for the most part, he was just teaching aristos. So well respected was he, he is Harvard's first black Professor. Not only had black boxing taken to sparring, but it made sparring central to boxing as an industry.

1860s Jem Mace uses sparring to improve himself rather than to just teach others, Qb rules are written. It's pretty well known to the sport if you want to feel the punch without causing so many cuts and such use gloves.

1870s Jem Mace fights under QB rules after having won and vacated the LPRR World title. He's really pushing for the use of of QB rules now.

1880s John L. seals bare knuckle's fate by winning and defending the bare knuckle title and the QB rules title.

1910s IBU and following sanctioning bodies define legal gloves.



I'm getting a bit tired and drawing blanks....damn. There was way more I had planned to say. Maybe it'll come in time.

[billeau2]

I tend to think Louis fought in a manner where pure punching was emphasized. Dempsey took it one step further and used movements that swung the arms through and into the target. Gloves eventually were necessary so the hands could be protected when these punches where thrown with so much arm swing. otherwise the hands would break.

[Willie Pep 229]

The Dempsey era reply was kinda right in one way.

While gloves became common early on, around the same time the MQB rules appeared in the athletic clubs, they tended to be 4 or 5 ounces with no tape/wrappings. They were there to protect the fighters hands but didn't actually "add" power.

But as suggested above the pre-Dempsey era (the 19-teens) saw an advancement in wrappings that greatly impacted punching power.

I am of the mind that Dempsey's (legal) wrappings for the Willard fight was a break through moment for the effectiveness of proper wrappings; it was a game changer, (and I also believe it helped promote the 'loaded gloves' legend.)

When you compare gloves and wrappings for the Johnson-Willard (1915) fight to the Dempsey-Willard fight (1919) you find they were a world apart.

Before 'modern' wrappings gloves protected a fighter's hands, after, the glove became a lethal weapon.

But that's probably not what the question was asking.

[Pugilist89]

The Dempsey era reply was kinda right in one way.

While gloves became common early on, around the same time the MQB rules appeared in the athletic clubs, they tended to be 4 or 5 ounces with no tape/wrappings. They were there to protect the fighters hands but didn't actually "add" power.

But as suggested above the pre-Dempsey era (the 19-teens) saw an advancement in wrappings that greatly impacted punching power.

I am of the mind that Dempsey's (legal) wrappings for the Willard fight was a break through moment for the effectiveness of proper wrappings; it was a game changer, (and I also believe it helped promote the 'loaded gloves' legend.)

When you compare gloves and wrappings for the Johnson-Willard (1915) fight to the Dempsey-Willard fight (1919) you find they were a world apart.

Before 'modern' wrappings gloves protected a fighter's hands, after, the glove became a lethal weapon.

But that's probably not what the question was asking.

Was Dempsey instrumental in going to the head as a bare knuckle boxer? From what I've read, BKB was mostly bodyshots back in the day? .

[Pugilist89]

I was surprised to see that todays Bare Knuckle Boxing is the same as gloved. Techniques are the same. Has it caught on in the UK?

https://*************/watch?v=lVFEJTzdBY4

[Rusty Tromboni]

Gloves were introduced later in Dempseys era as far as I'm aware.

How soon after this were the techniques modified to what we see today? What is the first elite, gloved boxing match that looks somewhat modern in terms of technique?

Look at guys like Kilbane, McGovern, Wilde, Fitzsimmons... then look at McGregor.


Even after Dempsey, watch McLarnin and Canzoneri.

After Louis you'll still get guys like Ingo.

Watch Napoles, he's not exactly conventional.

Watch Pryor vs Arguello to see that there's still disparity in technical proficiency, but not efficacy, in the 80s. Watch Hagler's defenses to see that crude punchers were still challenging for championships in that era.


Guys like Hamed and Margarito start to become anomalous.

Now, Wilder appears bizarrely unsound.


Heavier, fuller gloves also protect fighters. It completely changes the mechanics.

Watch Boxers attempt Kickboxing, and Kickboxers attempt MMA. It's not just the ******* rules that are problematic, it's the freedom you suddenly have in your hands.

Guys like Rigo, Linares, Tank, and Lopez would be hopeless in Kickboxing and MMA.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I was surprised to see that todays Bare Knuckle Boxing is the same as gloved. Techniques are the same. Has it caught on in the UK?

https://*************/watch?v=lVFEJTzdBY4

Because they're trained for Boxing. In time, they'll revert to more traditional techniques.

You can really hurt yourself trying to throw "normal" punches in a fight.

[billeau2]

Because they're trained for Boxing. In time, they'll revert to more traditional techniques.

You can really hurt yourself trying to throw "normal" punches in a fight.

This is absolutely correct. Its so simple to understand of one wants to: Take a wing chun punch, straight, vertical elbow bent and hit someone gently on the chin. Your hand will feel like it hit nothing with no force whatsoever. The person hit will, depending on the follow through and speed, feel an electric jarring, see chrome bubbles, or be koed.

What makes the punch work is the connection. The hand itself is instrumental, it has to line up with the shoulder... and any straight lead is the same... thats what a wing chun punch essentially is, a lead from a squared up position.

Now, try it with gloves... You never will succeed the same way, its impossible. the hand has to connect with the chin with no barriers in between, or with a flimsy barrier in between. the minute a large glove is used, you lose the dynamic. With the glove you need to swing hard, use force instead of accuracy. Different technique entirely.