Jack Dempsey's Refusal to Fight Joe Jeanette

[Marchegiano]

Spelling on purpose...?

Was this before or after he fought him? (sorry, I see now it says rematch.)

He knocked him out in 4. What would be the reason for fighting him again other than to duck his #1 challenger?



Maybe he did duck fighters. Give us the details. Let's say he had a #1 contender for at least 4 years and the public was asking for it, but he decides not to fight of his own volition. I'd say it's a duck. Why wouldn't it be?

Give us the details of the contract. It's not only about the existence of a contract. It's that the contract was valid, fair, and followed perfectly by those involved. Right?

I agree, ducks are not absolved by justification or understand-ability. It's still avoidance.

To say " I hold nothing against X for avoiding that situation" is fine, but to try to relabel avoidance because you understand the motive or would do yourself or any of that is a bit too much for me.


Champions, or really just men in position juxta to those without, ought to have more denials and such in their history than fellas looking for their break.....duh. This idea where historical fans love to paint pictures of innocent fighting men held back in some way or another by their time and race does not settle with me. It's like no one's a shrewd business man, or, if they are, it's not ducking cause it's bit-ness....that's still a duck.

It just makes sense to me. I always known every single champion is a duck, they have to, they can't fight everyone and by way of fighting X you sometimes duck Y. Even Rocco has Valdes...yes I'm fully aware he beat the man who beat the man, but, didn't fight the years long number one contender. Don't give a **** if he is the destroyer of the 50s and battered everyone put in front. Nino was there, wanted it, and didn't get it....ducked.


Because Jack Johnson. Why I do not feel excuses ought to absolve actions. JJ was up against plenty, made it happen, figured it out, and no one even tries to cover up the fact that he had no interest in black challengers. Same excuses work for Jack, hell he used to too. No one wants to see two black guys for the title. Was it untrue? No, but we still pin him to it. So why would I give a **** if the truth is Dempsey wanted the fight but money or some such similar? If it's a duck for JJ-Sam then it is Jack-Harry, hell Dempsey's worse cause he's white and could have made it happen with far, far less effort than it takes for a black man to get a title fight. JJ toured the ****ing planet. Dempsey sat on ass benefiting from white elitism and did little to nothing to not be blatant about it.

What's Dempsey's oh-so great excuse actually? With all the racial bias in his favor he's too ****** to figure out how to get what he wants? Lacks the will power? At a certain point all this fine details stop mattering. He didn't fight Wills this time or that time because of this excuse or that excuse....ok maybe this excuse or that is true but at not point did he make any real attempt, just like Sully who gets a pass for polices, to actually apply any ounce of his own agency toward a real push for a fight. A black man the world didn't want as champion did more and got more for himself than a loved white champion? My ass, Jack benefited and ENJOYED benefiting from his era. JD had waaaaaaaay more power and social ability than JJ. It's like telling me super loved Pac-Man can do nothing to make Money Mayweather more likable. My ****, he can too, he doesn't want to and why would he? Same for Jack. If JJ can shove blackness down racists throats then Dempsey damn sure can fight a black man, if Dempsey ever once actually wanted to rather than benefiting from living in a time when it's super easy to not.


Since we have a champ who refused to accept his place I find the whole idea of using excuses to keep status unfitting, short. JJ figured it out. The truth seems clear to me and it seems like older fellas just have a hard time breaking the narrative they are used to sharing and hearing be accepted.




Also, time based excuse making is helping me at all. Hitler's not a racist, he's a product of his time. Jesus was not an inspiration but rather a product of his time. Queen Vic was normal monarch who lived during an abnormal time for Empire.


Titus could have been Hitler, Henry could have been Vic, Mathias could have been Jesus.....sure....they lived in period where that's a possibility. Ol' Henry sailing across the planet making colonies in ****ing Australia....sure. Good ol' Titus 'rounding up all the ***s and putting them to slave labor until they're worked to death on minimum rations...cause that were doable in 70 ad. Of course any of the compassion gods at any point could have caught fire. The Greeks praying to Apollo had just never heard of the idea of compassion....sure.



Y'all done know Hitler ain't possible until Hitler's era. Vic can't happen prior, and Jesus comes after any failed compassion gods and a few K years after the ****-gods.



Ah, but, can't blame Dempsey or whoever for enjoying their era? My ass, yes I can. Same as I do Adolf and Jesus despite knowing quite a lot of them is just being a product of their time.

[travestyny]

I agree, ducks are not absolved by justification or understand-ability. It's still avoidance.

To say " I hold nothing against X for avoiding that situation" is fine, but to try to relabel avoidance because you understand the motive or would do yourself or any of that is a bit too much for me.


Champions, or really just men in position juxta to those without, ought to have more denials and such in their history than fellas looking for their break.....duh. This idea where historical fans love to paint pictures of innocent fighting men held back in some way or another by their time and race does not settle with me. It's like no one's a shrewd business man, or, if they are, it's not ducking cause it's bit-ness....that's still a duck.

It just makes sense to me. I always known every single champion is a duck, they have to, they can't fight everyone and by way of fighting X you sometimes duck Y. Even Rocco has Valdes...yes I'm fully aware he beat the man who beat the man, but, didn't fight the years long number one contender. Don't give a **** if he is the destroyer of the 50s and battered everyone put in front. Nino was there, wanted it, and didn't get it....ducked.


Because Jack Johnson. Why I do not feel excuses ought to absolve actions. JJ was up against plenty, made it happen, figured it out, and no one even tries to cover up the fact that he had no interest in black challengers. Same excuses work for Jack, hell he used to too. No one wants to see two black guys for the title. Was it untrue? No, but we still pin him to it. So why would I give a **** if the truth is Dempsey wanted the fight but money or some such similar? If it's a duck for JJ-Sam then it is Jack-Harry, hell Dempsey's worse cause he's white and could have made it happen with far, far less effort than it takes for a black man to get a title fight. JJ toured the ****ing planet. Dempsey sat on ass benefiting from white elitism and did little to nothing to not be blatant about it.

What's Dempsey's oh-so great excuse actually? With all the racial bias in his favor he's too ****** to figure out how to get what he wants? Lacks the will power? At a certain point all this fine details stop mattering. He didn't fight Wills this time or that time because of this excuse or that excuse....ok maybe this excuse or that is true but at not point did he make any real attempt, just like Sully who gets a pass for polices, to actually apply any ounce of his own agency toward a real push for a fight. A black man the world didn't want as champion did more and got more for himself than a loved white champion? My ass, Jack benefited and ENJOYED benefiting from his era. JD had waaaaaaaay more power and social ability than JJ. It's like telling me super loved Pac-Man can do nothing to make Money Mayweather more likable. My ****, he can too, he doesn't want to and why would he? Same for Jack. If JJ can shove blackness down racists throats then Dempsey damn sure can fight a black man, if Dempsey ever once actually wanted to rather than benefiting from living in a time when it's super easy to not.


Since we have a champ who refused to accept his place I find the whole idea of using excuses to keep status unfitting, short. JJ figured it out. The truth seems clear to me and it seems like older fellas just have a hard time breaking the narrative they are used to sharing and hearing be accepted.




Also, time based excuse making is helping me at all. Hitler's not a racist, he's a product of his time. Jesus was not an inspiration but rather a product of his time. Queen Vic was normal monarch who lived during an abnormal time for Empire.


Titus could have been Hitler, Henry could have been Vic, Mathias could have been Jesus.....sure....they lived in period where that's a possibility. Ol' Henry sailing across the planet making colonies in ****ing Australia....sure. Good ol' Titus 'rounding up all the ***s and putting them to slave labor until they're worked to death on minimum rations...cause that were doable in 70 ad. Of course any of the compassion gods at any point could have caught fire. The Greeks praying to Apollo had just never heard of the idea of compassion....sure.



Y'all done know Hitler ain't possible until Hitler's era. Vic can't happen prior, and Jesus comes after any failed compassion gods and a few K years after the ****-gods.



Ah, but, can't blame Dempsey or whoever for enjoying their era? My ass, yes I can. Same as I do Adolf and Jesus despite knowing quite a lot of them is just being a product of their time.

Good post. It actually reminds me of something that Dempsey said himself.


In '26, right after he broke the contract and was locked in to fight Tunney, Dempsey stated that he will no longer allow anyone to make him the goat for not fighting Wills. He said he will put his foot down and finally demand that the fight is made, or he will demand to know why the fight will not be made.

In the same statement, he said Wills was the only man he wanted to fight since becoming champion in 1919.

Now, I'm thinking..... if you wanted to fight Wills since 1919, and it took you until 1926 (and after breaking a valid contract) to decide you will put your foot down and demand the fight is made or demand to know why....


Yea, way to go, Demp. A bit too late, innit?


Of course, soon after that he claimed to be upset at Wills for dragging him to court trying to get the injunction recognized in other places, and stated Wills will never get a shot. God forbid Wills try to force the champion who wanted to fight him for a whopping 8 years....to finally fight him.

[HOUDINI563]

Unfortunately the record which has been known for 100 years has led historians and writers to come to a different conclusion. Pretty much they are all in unison. You can go back to the first bio written in 1929 or what is considered the best bio ever written regarding Dempsey in 2003 written by a history professor.

What I find is that the uneducated want to feel they are on par with the educated. Instead of accepting known truth they do their best to twist reality and in this case twist a lawsuit, which Dempsey won in 1931 but was reversed on appeal but never retried, into “Dempsey ducked Wills”. Dempsey knew the odds of a bout with Wills coming off was astronomical. This was based upon years of attempts to make the bout occur. Dempsey chose the bout that would occur promoted by someone who probably would not let him down. Rickard, when he met with Dempsey in April of 1926 in El Paso, stated that he had to talk Dempsey out of fighting Wills.

In the early 30’s Wills was interviewed where he stated that Rickard was not allowed to put together a mixed race bout for the heavyweight championship because of fears of the aftermath. Wills also stated years later that he did not hold Dempsey to blame for the bout not occurring. “Had it been up to Jack I know we would have fought”.

[QueensburyRules]

Go get a friend, pops. I don't want to discuss your lack of mental fortitude any longer.

Tell it to someone who actually cares about you. And for God's sake, take your meds!

- -Too late.

Started a 501 nonprofit Teensy Fund for donated meds that took off like a Cornflakia Wildfire.

Address por favor and free drugs 4 U!

[travestyny]

- -Too late.

Started a 501 nonprofit Teensy Fund for donated meds that took off like a Cornflakia Wildfire.

Address por favor and free drugs 4 U!

Once again, I'm not interested in your random diarrhea of the mouth.

Why don't you come back with some information about that Dempsey offer to fight Wills in 1920 that didn't exist....

or the one in 2020 that damn sure didn't exist

[Marchegiano]

Unfortunately the record which has been known for 100 years has led historians and writers to come to a different conclusion. Pretty much they are all in unison. You can go back to the first bio written in 1929 or what is considered the best bio ever written regarding Dempsey in 2003 written by a history professor.

What I find is that the uneducated want to feel they are on par with the educated. Instead of accepting known truth they do their best to twist reality and in this case twist a lawsuit, which Dempsey won in 1931 but was reversed on appeal but never retried, into “Dempsey ducked Wills”. Dempsey knew the odds of a bout with Wills coming off was astronomical. This was based upon years of attempts to make the bout occur. Dempsey chose the bout that would occur promoted by someone who probably would not let him down. Rickard, when he met with Dempsey in April of 1926 in El Paso, stated that he had to talk Dempsey out of fighting Wills.

In the early 30’s Wills was interviewed where he stated that Rickard was not allowed to put together a mixed race bout for the heavyweight championship because of fears of the aftermath. Wills also stated years later that he did not hold Dempsey to blame for the bout not occurring. “Had it been up to Jack I know we would have fought”.

Feynman quit science because after having attained his position on top Well respected academia wrote his work off as good without even checking it. He fixed the plot, watched them pass off BS he knew was BS as truth, and quit in protest.

So, no.

No to your child-like obsession with hierarchy.

No to you dictating what is and is not authority.

No, there is no such thing as a credential beyond reproach.

[travestyny]

What I find is that the uneducated want to feel they are on par with the educated. Instead of accepting known truth they do their best to twist reality and in this case twist a lawsuit, which Dempsey won in 1931 but was reversed on appeal but never retried, into “Dempsey ducked Wills”. Dempsey knew the odds of a bout with Wills coming off was astronomical. This was based upon years of attempts to make the bout occur. Dempsey chose the bout that would occur promoted by someone who probably would not let him down. Rickard, when he met with Dempsey in April of 1926 in El Paso, stated that he had to talk Dempsey out of fighting Wills.

In the early 30’s Wills was interviewed where he stated that Rickard was not allowed to put together a mixed race bout for the heavyweight championship because of fears of the aftermath. Wills also stated years later that he did not hold Dempsey to blame for the bout not occurring. “Had it been up to Jack I know we would have fought”.

If he won the lawsuit, how the hell was an injunction granted that made him unable to fight anyone except Wills in Chicago, why does the decision straight up say he broke the contract, and why does the decision give an overview of what damages would be.

You don't pay damages if you've won


More idiocy.


Once again, Rickard was NOT a part of the broken contract. Just keep ducking it, but you're not fooling anyone.


Also, keep ducking that Wills himself said Dempsey was ducking him (already showed you proof of it), as well as a whole list of other folk which I've included, but you won't go near. There's your historical record.

Ignore it:

Phoenix Tribune -- July 1 1922
Dempsey is Yellow, Says Noted Writer

Jack Dempsey....is afraid to meet Harry Wills...is the way two of the best sporting authorities of the country, (white) summed up the repeated refusal of Dempsey to meet the colored contender. We heartily agree with them.

Great Falls Tribune -- September 12, 1922
Polo Grounds Stadum Would Permit Cheap Seats for Wills' and Champ's Encounter

Considering the foregoing facts it is inconceivable how Dempsey can any longer dodge a meeting with Wills.

The Chicago Whip -- January 22, 1922
Wills and Dempsey

The method Dempsey is employing to dodge the issue of meeting Wills is simply ludicrous, when he persists in saying that the public does not want such a match. Do you think for a moment that W. A. Brady, a man who has had years of study of handling the public, would attempt to stage such a match where he not convinced of its popular demand? If so, you have another thought coming, for Brady is no novice at the boxing game, and when he speaks, it is with force.

St. Paul Echo / The Negro Press
Dempsey's New Championship

Dempsey had the brazen face to say that for five years he has been trying to get Harry in the ring. We must at least compliment Dempsey's nerve; it certainly takes nerve to say publicly, boldly and in big print something that everybody knows is untrue. Wills has been the one chasing Dempsey, since the memory of the fun runneth not to the contrary

Has the boxing commission ever had to threaten Wills to try to make him contract with Dempsey? Has the commission ever had to order Wills to set a date for a bout with Dempsey? Has wills ever forfeited $50,000 just to keep from meeting Dempsey? Has any promoter ever had to get an injunction against Wills to try to make him live up to contract to box Dempsey? Has Wills ever pretended, as Dempsey has pretended, that the lack of financial inducement stood in the way?

Phoenix Tribune - Aug 19, 1922
It would seem to the casual observer that there is a concerted movement on foot to assure the white race of maintaining the title belt for heavyweights. The constant dodging of Dempsey himself and the strategic moves of his many white friends are but indications that they fear the crown will pass to a colored man if Dempsey should meet Wills in a championship bout.

The Broad Ax - October 2nd, 1926
The downfall of Mr. Jack Dempsey...is not unlike the plight of a white man, who having been injured in a wreck, preferred death to a ride to the hospital in an ambulance which bore the body of a colored man.

Mr. Dempsey, aided by Mr. Rickard and several other good American "sportsmen," did not think it was ethical to fight Mar. harry Wills, and those years of dodging--not fighting--took their toll from Mr. Dempsey's once husky frame.

Phoenix Tribune -- Sept. 16, 1922
Dempsey is Still Trying to Dodge Match with Wills

Mr. Dempsey must think that Wills is somewhat of a "Panther," for he continually refuses--not in words--but in actions, to be enticed to sit on a three legged stool opposite the bronze adonis. And why? Just because he knows that when that fateful day comes, the championship is likely, very likely to once again change hands.

The Chicago Whip

Dempsey has succeeded in dodging Wills for some time, even though it is a known fact that the bronze fighter has been for some time the most logical contender for a chance at the championship trophy.

New York Herald -- June 11, 1922

Dempsey apparently is dodging this one very carefully. As carefully as Wilson is dodging Greb, and Kilbane is dodging Johnny Dundee.

Some time ago Jack Kearns said, "Dempsey will fight Wills if the public demands the bout."

The public is demanding the bout about as emphatically as the public ever has demanded a bout.

The Seattle Star -- June 14, 1922
Expert thinks Dempsey is Dodging Harry Wills

Dempsey already has staggered prospective promoters with a tip that he wants $500,000 for his next big performance.

If Wills would be willing to accept about $50 for his share, then the fight might be possible.

Grand Forks Herald -- July 17, 1922

Jack Dempsey was unquestionably dodging a bout with Harry Wills. Whether he feared his prowess or was disinclined to box a colored fight4er is not known, but he had no desire to run afoul of the New York Commission and has signed a blanket contract to meet Wills probably next July 4th.

La Plata -- May 18, 1923

In taking on Tom Gibbons in a 15 round "fight"...Jack Dempsey again dodged Harry Wills, the dangerous Negro Champion.

[HOUDINI563]

And NO to your ignoring the well known history in your attempt to feel superior to those who have actually done the work.

Dempsey was exonerated many decades ago. No new evidence has been magically discovered that changes this as fact. Wills himself laid no blame upon Dempsey and he agreed that Rickard could not get the bout going due to fears of the aftermath. That’s the man himself talking.

[travestyny]

And NO to your ignoring the well known history in your attempt to feel superior to those who have actually done the work.

Dempsey was exonerated many decades ago. No new evidence has been magically discovered that changes this as fact. Wills himself laid no blame upon Dempsey and he agreed that Rickard could not get the bout going due to fears of the aftermath. That’s the man himself talking.

Wills himself DID lay blame on Dempsey

"I don't expect ever to meet Dempsey in the ring," said a resigned Wills. "He has been dodging me for many years and now I am convinced he has been kidding all along.

https://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/man-didn-fight-dempsey-harry-wills-chapter-131-article-1.515138

THAT'S THE MAN TALKING HIMSELF

Any statement about Kearns and Rickard have NOTHING to do with what happened when Dempsey broke that contract in '26 because Rickard was NOT the promoter, and Kearns was suing Dempsey. They were not involved.. Dempsey himself admit that he could have put his foot down to get the fight made but waited until the end of the road in '26 when they both lost.

Personally, I also blame Arum more for Pacquaio not meeting Mayweather sooner, but does Pacquaio deserve some of that blame being that Arum is working for him? Absolutely.

Dempsey was NOT exonerated. Just because you have people who kissed up to him in biographies talking about Rickard and Kearns doesn't mean anything when there is clear evidence that he broke a valid contract for no reason.


Give up. I've posted commissioners, sports writers, promoters, all saying that Dempsey outright ducked Wills. There has been nothing that has happened since then to change anyone's mind.


Let's look at those Farley quotations for the well known history. But but but....ignore that. Right?

[travestyny]

This is all I'm saying. The same as Wills manager:

He said that no promoter can be found to put up the money for a fight with Wills, but he overlooks the $300,000 that was waiting for him in Chicago when he signed for a fight and then run out.

If anyone can tell me that didn't happen, then I'll see your point. If that's exactly what happened, I don't see what the argument is. There have been a number or promoters who tried to make this bout, all of which were said to have good backing. The top of the article aslo talks about the NYSAC who also had a challenge on file for Dempsey to accept at this time. If you want to blame Rickard for when he was involved, so be it. Want to blame kearns from when he was involved, so be it. They were working for Dempsey, right? And when they weren't involved, who do you blame?

There's only one common denominator here.