Where Did Boxing Originate From?

[billeau2]

Well, I was trying to write an open ended answer so the reader could decide for themselves at what point to call it boxing.

I can respect the any form of fist fighting sorts, though I disagree.

I obviously look to Olympia myself but I can respect those who see pygmachia as a pre-boxing fist fighting sport.

The resurrection by Richard Dover is a very good place to begin modern boxing's story.

Broughton's Rules is as well.

Queensberry would be fair.

The birth of the sanctioning bodies might also be considered when boxing started.

One could argue for the modern rules, 10-point must, at least the unified.

There's plenty of ways to look at it. I'm not a big one for disconnected versions of fist fighting and I should know better than to shoot from the hip but hey, it's not actually a big deal.

Its actually a good conversation to have...Discernment is not something to be taken for granted. As you say, one can certainly pick a spot and claim it as some sort of point of origin.

Your explication is also interesting because modern Western thought had two idealizations at two distinct times: Initially we had the Romantics...Egypt was held as the great society of which Europe was to aspire. Interesting thing was, Greek culture was looked upon as being capricious, emotionally laden, disordered... Then Greek thinking became the rational, the Logos to follow. From capricious and passion laden Greek ideals and thought turned to a well ordered Apollonian whole.

I say this because we can see Greek ideals and practices becoming relevant to the perception and application of a sport/combat enterprise like boxing.

[Marchegiano]

Its actually a good conversation to have...Discernment is not something to be taken for granted. As you say, one can certainly pick a spot and claim it as some sort of point of origin.

Your explication is also interesting because modern Western thought had two idealizations at two distinct times: Initially we had the Romantics...Egypt was held as the great society of which Europe was to aspire. Interesting thing was, Greek culture was looked upon as being capricious, emotionally laden, disordered... Then Greek thinking became the rational, the Logos to follow. From capricious and passion laden Greek ideals and thought turned to a well ordered Apollonian whole.

I say this because we can see Greek ideals and practices becoming relevant to the perception and application of a sport/combat enterprise like boxing.

I'd be very surprised if there was any evidence of sport pre-Greece.

I'm not trying to downplay Shoulder but it's very difficult to discern a fist fight from wrestling in the ancient world. I let the historians just tell me.

Pankration throws another wrench in the mix.

When you have super old anything goes that's usually called wrestling if there's any depiction of any grappling. If it's super old and there's depiction of grappling and clear depiction or strikes then we call it boxing and wrestling. If it comes after sport pankration, has nothing to do with Greeks, and depicts wrestling and boxing then it's a depiction of pankration.

Also, if you're reading a wrestling book it seems any form of grappling depicted is wrestling however if you're reading an MMA or Boxing book then maybe it isn't wrestling.

Some guys stancing, could be anything, will be called anything you like if you look in the right book.

I never got into dating depictions or discerning between them myself because the disconnected forms of fighting don't have anything to do with the sport I study.

Like how I am sure Europe or Asia predates the other with sword but does not inspire one another for quite a while. Miyamoto Musashi knows nothing of El Cid...so there's no point in learning about El Cid if you're interested in how Miya came to be.

And, from what I know of the ancients, boxing, wrestling, and pankration are all depicted together more often than not, when looking at versions older than Greek sports, because they are not yet separated in the minds of the participants.

[Marchegiano]

And you concede that Poliakoff dates it to 1500 B.C.E?

Meaning it comes a good deal after the two separate terra cotta depictions of Mesopotamian boxers that I posted?

I've not had time to grab the book and look since, but, if you're telling rather than asking I am happy to accept, yes.

If you're asking me to look in the book and give you the date or confirm a date it's gonna be a while.

[billeau2]

I'd be very surprised if there was any evidence of sport pre-Greece.

I'm not trying to downplay Shoulder but it's very difficult to discern a fist fight from wrestling in the ancient world. I let the historians just tell me.

Pankration throws another wrench in the mix.

When you have super old anything goes that's usually called wrestling if there's any depiction of any grappling. If it's super old and there's depiction of grappling and clear depiction or strikes then we call it boxing and wrestling. If it comes after sport pankration, has nothing to do with Greeks, and depicts wrestling and boxing then it's a depiction of pankration.

Also, if you're reading a wrestling book it seems any form of grappling depicted is wrestling however if you're reading an MMA or Boxing book then maybe it isn't wrestling.

Some guys stancing, could be anything, will be called anything you like if you look in the right book.

I never got into dating depictions or discerning between them myself because the disconnected forms of fighting don't have anything to do with the sport I study.

Like how I am sure Europe or Asia predates the other with sword but does not inspire one another for quite a while. Miyamoto Musashi knows nothing of El Cid...so there's no point in learning about El Cid if you're interested in how Miya came to be.

And, from what I know of the ancients, boxing, wrestling, and pankration are all depicted together more often than not, when looking at versions older than Greek sports, because they are not yet separated in the minds of the participants.

You really have to define "sport." You certainly had something similar in other cultures... not as old as the greeks perhaps. I am thinking about the meso and South American Prymid cultures. But again, it was very different. We have a ball field and are told at various times the game was to determine whom would be sacrificed. Also, a point you made via an author you cited: the glory was to the region and the priests, not to the individual in these contests and that is different.

You had stick fighting traditions in The Afro-Hamitic world of the Nubians vis a vis the Egypians, there might have been individual contests and champions...we just don't know. We could know one day, depending on what we find.

Your second point is complicated. IMO you have to look at how participants see/saw the activity to define it... I am reminded of a dear friend who went to Ireland and was tickled pink when an older guy challenged him for a quick "go" on the cobbles, after which they both bloodied a bit, had beers and became the best of friends...One man's bonding ritual, another man's abject terror (some people are terrified of physical confrontation on that level)...and by analogy, one man's wrestling is another man's all out.

From the perspective of combat science, the real indicators are again, what people think, because this determines how they move, react, and the limits of the activity. Here is why that works relatively well: You could take a relative controlled fight setting, like, for example, those observed by Fairbanes in Vietnam. These fights being about honor and often over women.

During these fights, the actual initial use of force was, according to Fairbanes, somewhat negligable...But the ending inevitably involved the winner mounting the loser to submit, and the loser, compelled not to lose face, taking a knife and stabbing the winner in the kidney, thus killing him. None of the use of force initially was indicative of a life and death struggle. It was only social pressure that caused this activity to take on a dangerous conclusion. The same problem exists with so called MMA no holds barred matches. We have to define what "no Holds Barred" we are talking about lol. MMA happens in a controlled setting, and participants know this, no matter what they tell themselves.

Meanwhile in a rough and tumble match, or in a hand to hand combat scenario on a battle field the expectations are entirely different. Its simply not the same no holds barred is it? Entering a combat scenario I know I will be fighting for my life... This changes how I move, what I do, what I accept physically as "yeilding." In a ring I might well feel that I must submit, in the same situation on a killing field, I will fight on. It is human nature.

I am reminded of a story one of my favorite self protection author told. He was asked to escape a hold which he managed to do. His friend told him "Thats supposed to be inescapable!" to which he promptly apologized to his friend.

My point is there is reason to define these terms used based on the participants expectations, rather than based on categories of techniques used. The historians might best be served by listening to the participants.

participants in ancient Greece and other places get their ideas about what they are doing from the cultural conditioning they go through. its existential really.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Unfortunately your established facts Trombone... They may come from your lack of reading comprehension, but they are yours never the less.

Facts and criticial thinking, like what was presented before you put fourth an unsubstantiated jargon Trombone... Par for the course. I honestly wonder if you know what a fact even is!

Yeah I make sure when you post nonsense I call you on it... Most certainly.

Hmmm, that's funny. I didn't expect to hear that from the guy who quotes me on this forum verbatim.

Was this insight of yours drawn from those endless texts of Hindu philosophy?

Impossible Trombone. People always think, the mind always works... I mean even when trying to insult you show that you belong where the sand box and sprinklers are... Did M take your truck? awwww poor baby!

Actually in my generation the public school system in the city was quite good! I wonder if you even read half the posts you blow out to with that rusty trombone of yours... Actually with your reading comp...maybe its better that way. Maybe I can talk M into giving your truck back.

Oh yeah, I'm sure. In fact, I can believe little Mikey Bloomboig himself told you what a bright little pupil you were.

It really shows. Believe me, it really shows.

He seems to be on a school district tangent... Its better that he not read your post, if he did he we would get even more absurdities.

to be fair, many, not just blowhard, have a hard time distinguishing a pedigree, a specific art developed in several cultures progressively and along a single line, from a general notion of human behavior. Yes people have been punching each other a long time... does not make it boxing in the manner in which we know it today.

It's nice you feel that way. In fact, looking at America today, I would wager MOST Americans are on your wave-length. Critical thinking has virtually atrophied. Everything is vlack and white. Research..
Hell, reading altogether has become a lost art of sorts. You think people with knowledge are bad, but a misfit kid on the internet spewing pseudoscience it to be taken seriously.

Just don't mind me. It's probably the vaccines rotting out my vrain or something, right? Wanna hear how dumb I really am? I think the Earth is ROUND! Crazy, huh? Think about that the next time you're painting the wall with your scat.

Hey Rusty

Would you lay out your World War II theory in more detail? I keep seeing mention of it but don't have the big picture; what are you trying to say?

If you want you can PM me.

I really have no idea what place that has hete in this thread, but considering how far off the rails Short Bus has taken things, why not give it a run down?

WWII upset Boxing because:

1) It took a large pool of eligible candidates away from the sport for several formative years of their lives.

2) America's fortunes improved drastically: not only did the depression end, but the U.S. became global hegemon and far and away the greatest economic power.

3) The auto industry flourished leading to suburban development and mass relocation of populations.

4) A middle class emerged as the defining social class in America.

5) While America never had class structure on the level of the U.K., all the trappings from before the War vanished. Whites, in general, saw their status improve atgs Blacks saw their status suffer.

6) College and White collar work became significantly more common, and manual labor generally became safer and better paying.

7) Team sports over-took Boxing in popularity.

8) Immigration from Europe all but completely ceased.

9) Western Euorpe was in ruin and rebuilding was about protecting the population, particularly the most vulnerable.

10) The Communist Bloc prevented athletes from turning professional.

11) Improved technology and wealth meant that aside from other sports competing with Boxing, other activities and forms of expression also attracted interest in a way like never possible before the War.

This isn't just my "theory" it was expressed widely in the decades after the war. Jack Dempsey called for the Federal Government to assign a "Tsar" to clean-up Boxing, and pleaded for renewed investment in local Boxing gyms.

You can clearly see, watching Boxing and reviewing records, that Boxing regresses after the War. And interestingly many of the finest fighters start coming from overseas.

I remember my dad, who was from the South (when ******ia was the South) and hated Boxing, getting tired of my grandfather going on about Joe Frazier, interjecting something like,

"So Frank, you think Frazier and Ali would have been champions if **** Butkus had taken up Boxing?"

And my grandfather, lost in the moment scoffed.

"Yeah right!"

And dad just shot us a look. My grandfather knew he had been got.

Another time he asked how L.T. would do in Boxing.

Apparently he would've killed everybody.

See, my dad believed Boxing was a thug's sport. He'd been a Philly cop, and i'm sure that shaped his opinion. He felt Wrestling, Baseball, Football were the only proper sports.

And ya know what? Growing up outside Philly and Pittsburgh, and going to college in Ohio, I saw lots of guys me and my brothers' age playing those sports. Everyone like Boxing. Everyone swore they had an older family member who'd been some sort of champ or something, but no one Boxed.

I'm really for an all inclusive tale, but to use its very basic humanity, the fact that it is a unifying trait for men to punch ****, against the history of boxing, discrediting champions and soldiers alike just because the full research is hard or because by default your own, mine included, will never be complete....childish. irrespectively childish.

The thing is, your arguments don't hold water. Anyone with a High School degree can discredit them.

So what happened? All these bouts were etched in stone, sealed in a chest with a sign that read "Don't Open Until 1800 A.D." and then hurried off to rural Ireland?

So many things from the Greek world survived into the Middle Ages (and so many more didn't) only to be lost completely, or to be rediscovered in the modern era using a level of academic research you can't even comprehend.

We don't even have Aristotle's texts. We have a portion. And it's actually just the notes.

Armies up until the advent of firearms were on the cusp of recreating Alexander's combined-arms military, but never got there because they lacked the knowledge.

But that's OK because mysteriously Boxing DID survive.

Do you see how moronic you are?

100%.Iam a subscriber of national geographic magazine and you see pictures in there occasionally of animals loosely boxing each other eg primates and kangaroos.

Yes. And apes are notoriously bad fighters. Humans fight just like chimps.

Ever see a man try and defend himself against a canine? It's pathetic and hilarious. I've battered a lot of big dudes in my life. But against a 90 pound dog I've felt powerless.
I remember how one Wolf I had wanted to play rough. I missed work that day. And I still don't really know how she knocked me out.

Boxing and Wrestling developed so extensively in Ireland because the English took their weapons, and these were non-lethal means for resolving disputes. They developed BECAUSE they're ineffective (relative to using weapons) for doing serious harm. And if you've noticed, Boxing and Wrestling have continued to be safer and safer.

FWIW I am an advocate that boxing is the Western world's marital art.

There is unarmed combat . . .

There is fighting for war
There is fighting for prize
There is boxing for sport (and prize)

Which 'origin' are we looking for?

My two cents: the origin of boxing as we see it today is recent; fighting for prize, older, and unarmed combat for war ancient.

Boxing is a martial art; until there was an established and innovating technique deployed, that was consistently passed down to subsequent generations, via training, it wasn't "Boxing."

Capt Cook found people in a remote S Pacific Island doing kickboxing.

Everywhere people fight even without weapons. But in Ireland and Britain it was taken to a completely different level. No one has usurped that. Only the Brazilians with their modification of Judo, and Southeast Asians, to a degree, with Kickboxing.

There were cultures that were very old before Greece was young.


Terracotta relief of two Mesopotamian boxers, c. 2000 B.C.E. from Eshnunna, (Modern-day Tell Asram, Iraq).
Source: Erich Lessing / Art Resource, NY; used with permission.



Terracotta plaque of wrestlers and boxers. Khafaji, Nintu Temple, Early dynastic Period, 3000-2340 B.C.E., Iraq Museum, Baghdad.
Source: Flickr at www.flickr.com/photos/pankration (Pankration Research Institute's photostream; used with permission).


https://ejmas.com/jcs/2010jcs/jcsart_murray_1007.html

So what?

I don't think there's any more to dig up.

That terracotta plaque from the Nintu Temple is thought to be the earliest depiction of fist fighting there is.

We also have pictures of dogs that look EXACTLY like our mastiffs and greyhounds. Guess what, they're completely unrelated.

People around the workd play different instruments. Do South American flautists lay any claim to influencing European folk traditions?

It doesn't really take much to realize these things emerge independently.

[Rusty Tromboni]

You really have to define "sport." You certainly had something similar in other cultures... not as old as the greeks perhaps. I am thinking about the meso and South American Prymid cultures. But again, it was very different. We have a ball field and are told at various times the game was to determine whom would be sacrificed. Also, a point you made via an author you cited: the glory was to the region and the priests, not to the individual in these contests and that is different.

You had stick fighting traditions in The Afro-Hamitic world of the Nubians vis a vis the Egypians, there might have been individual contests and champions...we just don't know. We could know one day, depending on what we find.

Your second point is complicated. IMO you have to look at how participants see/saw the activity to define it... I am reminded of a dear friend who went to Ireland and was tickled pink when an older guy challenged him for a quick "go" on the cobbles, after which they both bloodied a bit, had beers and became the best of friends...One man's bonding ritual, another man's abject terror (some people are terrified of physical confrontation on that level)...and by analogy, one man's wrestling is another man's all out.

From the perspective of combat science, the real indicators are again, what people think, because this determines how they move, react, and the limits of the activity. Here is why that works relatively well: You could take a relative controlled fight setting, like, for example, those observed by Fairbanes in Vietnam. These fights being about honor and often over women.

During these fights, the actual initial use of force was, according to Fairbanes, somewhat negligable...But the ending inevitably involved the winner mounting the loser to submit, and the loser, compelled not to lose face, taking a knife and stabbing the winner in the kidney, thus killing him. None of the use of force initially was indicative of a life and death struggle. It was only social pressure that caused this activity to take on a dangerous conclusion. The same problem exists with so called MMA no holds barred matches. We have to define what "no Holds Barred" we are talking about lol. MMA happens in a controlled setting, and participants know this, no matter what they tell themselves.

Meanwhile in a rough and tumble match, or in a hand to hand combat scenario on a battle field the expectations are entirely different. Its simply not the same no holds barred is it? Entering a combat scenario I know I will be fighting for my life... This changes how I move, what I do, what I accept physically as "yeilding." In a ring I might well feel that I must submit, in the same situation on a killing field, I will fight on. It is human nature.

I am reminded of a story one of my favorite self protection author told. He was asked to escape a hold which he managed to do. His friend told him "Thats supposed to be inescapable!" to which he promptly apologized to his friend.

My point is there is reason to define these terms used based on the participants expectations, rather than based on categories of techniques used. The historians might best be served by listening to the participants.

participants in ancient Greece and other places get their ideas about what they are doing from the cultural conditioning they go through. its existential really.

Under what rules did Garcia beat Conn and Basillio beat Fullmer?

[Richard]

Yes. And apes are notoriously bad fighters. Humans fight just like chimps.

Ever see a man try and defend himself against a canine? It's pathetic and hilarious. I've battered a lot of big dudes in my life. But against a 90 pound dog I've felt powerless.
I remember how one Wolf I had wanted to play rough. I missed work that day. And I still don't really know how she knocked me out.

Dont mess with mother nature 😉

Boxing and Wrestling developed so extensively in Ireland because the English took their weapons, and these were non-lethal means for resolving disputes. They developed BECAUSE they're ineffective (relative to using weapons) for doing serious harm. And if you've noticed, Boxing and Wrestling have continued to be safer and safer.

I didnt know that.Thanks for the information.

[ShoulderRoll]

I minimize it because it means very little. Now, if we had enough information to tie it in with the culture, maybe a text, or something more descriptive to specifically show how it was unique to Mesopotamia, that would be different. It means very little because one would assume any group would have some form of using the hands to fight against each other and that they would wrestle...either as a military endevour, or otherwise.

Showing the "earliest" only means something if it can be contradicted. There is no contradiction because one would assume, in the absence of extraordinary proof to the contrary, that merely stating that there was an older society would imply that society had a means of fist fighting and (we may as well include wrestling) wrestling.

I call it the three F's: As Human beings we all do the following, We f uck, creating more human beings, we fight, trying to take finite resources for our benefit, and food, we eat to survive. You will not find any group of people, no matter how remote, that does not engage the three F's. As a matter of fact? If you took an island the size of Australia and put exactly two groups on the island? they would eventually find each other and fight it out... Which is why when you put a lot of groups in a small area, like Europe, you get a lot of advances...

Its not that European people are smarter, heck they were living in huts when China and Africa had great empires... But Europe did have a streak of progress in the relatively recent times, for a big chunk of history, because having to interact and fight with each other leads to cultural progress.

If you look at KoRyu sword manuals in katari Shinto Ryu, you can actually see, when the Portugese went to Japan, there just so happens to appear techniques for using the Japanese blade to stab, and at that time, texts discussing the trade off and use of Spanish fencing (and vice versa) along with details of using muskets. "Cultural interaction" inevitably leads to progress and development.

The only exception to what I am trying to point out to you regarding my take are the Australian Aborigines. These people were very very highly evolved with a kinship system and an essentially non violent means of interacting and developing as a society that seems out of the norm for a large cultural nexus.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to get my hands on more information about Mesopotamia and how they used martial arts technology practices...

Does this make sense? It is a Rhetorical and logical tautology to say "There is proof of the earliest civilization to use fist fighting." You cannot prove that which cannot be falsified. So in this case could you find me a society that did not engage in some form of using a closed hand to smack each other? merely stating "I found evidence of an older society than that on the Euphrates River" implies a group that hit each other with a closed hand in some fashion, whether we see a picture of it, or not.

The Mesopatamian depictions show the right hand guard position protecting the body, or "barring the mark" as the English would call it centuries later.

That hand isn't chambered to the hip like in karate or held in some crane or preying mantis pose. To me it's clearly recognizable as a boxing fundamental.

It's true that we don't have extensive knowledge of that style. But just because of that one doesn't simply ignore it and remove it from the history altogether.

It very well could be that Mesopotamian fighting influenced the Egyptian fighting arts which influenced Greece. Those major civilizations were certainly all close enough to each other (both in time and place) for it to happen.

Egyptian hieroglyphs came after Sumerian script and it is thought that they were invented as an outgrowth of the latter. Plato studied 13 years in Egypt and Pythagoras likewise travelled and learned in several Egyptian cities.

So despite any claims of "independent development" we know there was cross cultural influence in the ancient world.

[Marchegiano]

Hmmm, that's funny. I didn't expect to hear that from the guy who quotes me on this forum verbatim.

Was this insight of yours drawn from those endless texts of Hindu philosophy?




Oh yeah, I'm sure. In fact, I can believe little Mikey Bloomboig himself told you what a bright little pupil you were.

It really shows. Believe me, it really shows.




It's nice you feel that way. In fact, looking at America today, I would wager MOST Americans are on your wave-length. Critical thinking has virtually atrophied. Everything is vlack and white. Research..
Hell, reading altogether has become a lost art of sorts. You think people with knowledge are bad, but a misfit kid on the internet spewing pseudoscience it to be taken seriously.

Just don't mind me. It's probably the vaccines rotting out my vrain or something, right? Wanna hear how dumb I really am? I think the Earth is ROUND! Crazy, huh? Think about that the next time you're painting the wall with your scat.



I really have no idea what place that has hete in this thread, but considering how far off the rails Short Bus has taken things, why not give it a run down?

WWII upset Boxing because:

1) It took a large pool of eligible candidates away from the sport for several formative years of their lives.

2) America's fortunes improved drastically: not only did the depression end, but the U.S. became global hegemon and far and away the greatest economic power.

3) The auto industry flourished leading to suburban development and mass relocation of populations.

4) A middle class emerged as the defining social class in America.

5) While America never had class structure on the level of the U.K., all the trappings from before the War vanished. Whites, in general, saw their status improve atgs Blacks saw their status suffer.

6) College and White collar work became significantly more common, and manual labor generally became safer and better paying.

7) Team sports over-took Boxing in popularity.

8) Immigration from Europe all but completely ceased.

9) Western Euorpe was in ruin and rebuilding was about protecting the population, particularly the most vulnerable.

10) The Communist Bloc prevented athletes from turning professional.

11) Improved technology and wealth meant that aside from other sports competing with Boxing, other activities and forms of expression also attracted interest in a way like never possible before the War.

This isn't just my "theory" it was expressed widely in the decades after the war. Jack Dempsey called for the Federal Government to assign a "Tsar" to clean-up Boxing, and pleaded for renewed investment in local Boxing gyms.

You can clearly see, watching Boxing and reviewing records, that Boxing regresses after the War. And interestingly many of the finest fighters start coming from overseas.

I remember my dad, who was from the South (when ******ia was the South) and hated Boxing, getting tired of my grandfather going on about Joe Frazier, interjecting something like,

"So Frank, you think Frazier and Ali would have been champions if **** Butkus had taken up Boxing?"

And my grandfather, lost in the moment scoffed.

"Yeah right!"

And dad just shot us a look. My grandfather knew he had been got.

Another time he asked how L.T. would do in Boxing.

Apparently he would've killed everybody.

See, my dad believed Boxing was a thug's sport. He'd been a Philly cop, and i'm sure that shaped his opinion. He felt Wrestling, Baseball, Football were the only proper sports.

And ya know what? Growing up outside Philly and Pittsburgh, and going to college in Ohio, I saw lots of guys me and my brothers' age playing those sports. Everyone like Boxing. Everyone swore they had an older family member who'd been some sort of champ or something, but no one Boxed.






The thing is, your arguments don't hold water. Anyone with a High School degree can discredit them.

So what happened? All these bouts were etched in stone, sealed in a chest with a sign that read "Don't Open Until 1800 A.D." and then hurried off to rural Ireland?

So many things from the Greek world survived into the Middle Ages (and so many more didn't) only to be lost completely, or to be rediscovered in the modern era using a level of academic research you can't even comprehend.

We don't even have Aristotle's texts. We have a portion. And it's actually just the notes.

Armies up until the advent of firearms were on the cusp of recreating Alexander's combined-arms military, but never got there because they lacked the knowledge.

But that's OK because mysteriously Boxing DID survive.

Do you see how moronic you are?



Yes. And apes are notoriously bad fighters. Humans fight just like chimps.

Ever see a man try and defend himself against a canine? It's pathetic and hilarious. I've battered a lot of big dudes in my life. But against a 90 pound dog I've felt powerless.
I remember how one Wolf I had wanted to play rough. I missed work that day. And I still don't really know how she knocked me out.

Boxing and Wrestling developed so extensively in Ireland because the English took their weapons, and these were non-lethal means for resolving disputes. They developed BECAUSE they're ineffective (relative to using weapons) for doing serious harm. And if you've noticed, Boxing and Wrestling have continued to be safer and safer.



Capt Cook found people in a remote S Pacific Island doing kickboxing.

Everywhere people fight even without weapons. But in Ireland and Britain it was taken to a completely different level. No one has usurped that. Only the Brazilians with their modification of Judo, and Southeast Asians, to a degree, with Kickboxing.



So what?



We also have pictures of dogs that look EXACTLY like our mastiffs and greyhounds. Guess what, they're completely unrelated.

People around the workd play different instruments. Do South American flautists lay any claim to influencing European folk traditions?

It doesn't really take much to realize these things emerge independently.

There's no miracle. I explained exactly what happened. The **** does aristotle have to do with anything?


Basically what you said is since quite a bit of their culture is lost we can't know what isn't. Which is dumb.

[billeau2]

Hmmm, that's funny. I didn't expect to hear that from the guy who quotes me on this forum verbatim.

Was this insight of yours drawn from those endless texts of Hindu philosophy?




Oh yeah, I'm sure. In fact, I can believe little Mikey Bloomboig himself told you what a bright little pupil you were.

It really shows. Believe me, it really shows.




It's nice you feel that way. In fact, looking at America today, I would wager MOST Americans are on your wave-length. Critical thinking has virtually atrophied. Everything is vlack and white. Research..
Hell, reading altogether has become a lost art of sorts. You think people with knowledge are bad, but a misfit kid on the internet spewing pseudoscience it to be taken seriously.

Just don't mind me. It's probably the vaccines rotting out my vrain or something, right? Wanna hear how dumb I really am? I think the Earth is ROUND! Crazy, huh? Think about that the next time you're painting the wall with your scat.



I really have no idea what place that has hete in this thread, but considering how far off the rails Short Bus has taken things, why not give it a run down?

WWII upset Boxing because:

1) It took a large pool of eligible candidates away from the sport for several formative years of their lives.

2) America's fortunes improved drastically: not only did the depression end, but the U.S. became global hegemon and far and away the greatest economic power.

3) The auto industry flourished leading to suburban development and mass relocation of populations.

4) A middle class emerged as the defining social class in America.

5) While America never had class structure on the level of the U.K., all the trappings from before the War vanished. Whites, in general, saw their status improve atgs Blacks saw their status suffer.

6) College and White collar work became significantly more common, and manual labor generally became safer and better paying.

7) Team sports over-took Boxing in popularity.

8) Immigration from Europe all but completely ceased.

9) Western Euorpe was in ruin and rebuilding was about protecting the population, particularly the most vulnerable.

10) The Communist Bloc prevented athletes from turning professional.

11) Improved technology and wealth meant that aside from other sports competing with Boxing, other activities and forms of expression also attracted interest in a way like never possible before the War.

This isn't just my "theory" it was expressed widely in the decades after the war. Jack Dempsey called for the Federal Government to assign a "Tsar" to clean-up Boxing, and pleaded for renewed investment in local Boxing gyms.

You can clearly see, watching Boxing and reviewing records, that Boxing regresses after the War. And interestingly many of the finest fighters start coming from overseas.

I remember my dad, who was from the South (when ******ia was the South) and hated Boxing, getting tired of my grandfather going on about Joe Frazier, interjecting something like,

"So Frank, you think Frazier and Ali would have been champions if **** Butkus had taken up Boxing?"

And my grandfather, lost in the moment scoffed.

"Yeah right!"

And dad just shot us a look. My grandfather knew he had been got.

Another time he asked how L.T. would do in Boxing.

Apparently he would've killed everybody.

See, my dad believed Boxing was a thug's sport. He'd been a Philly cop, and i'm sure that shaped his opinion. He felt Wrestling, Baseball, Football were the only proper sports.

And ya know what? Growing up outside Philly and Pittsburgh, and going to college in Ohio, I saw lots of guys me and my brothers' age playing those sports. Everyone like Boxing. Everyone swore they had an older family member who'd been some sort of champ or something, but no one Boxed.






The thing is, your arguments don't hold water. Anyone with a High School degree can discredit them.

So what happened? All these bouts were etched in stone, sealed in a chest with a sign that read "Don't Open Until 1800 A.D." and then hurried off to rural Ireland?

So many things from the Greek world survived into the Middle Ages (and so many more didn't) only to be lost completely, or to be rediscovered in the modern era using a level of academic research you can't even comprehend.

We don't even have Aristotle's texts. We have a portion. And it's actually just the notes.

Armies up until the advent of firearms were on the cusp of recreating Alexander's combined-arms military, but never got there because they lacked the knowledge.

But that's OK because mysteriously Boxing DID survive.

Do you see how moronic you are?



Yes. And apes are notoriously bad fighters. Humans fight just like chimps.

Ever see a man try and defend himself against a canine? It's pathetic and hilarious. I've battered a lot of big dudes in my life. But against a 90 pound dog I've felt powerless.
I remember how one Wolf I had wanted to play rough. I missed work that day. And I still don't really know how she knocked me out.

Boxing and Wrestling developed so extensively in Ireland because the English took their weapons, and these were non-lethal means for resolving disputes. They developed BECAUSE they're ineffective (relative to using weapons) for doing serious harm. And if you've noticed, Boxing and Wrestling have continued to be safer and safer.



Capt Cook found people in a remote S Pacific Island doing kickboxing.

Everywhere people fight even without weapons. But in Ireland and Britain it was taken to a completely different level. No one has usurped that. Only the Brazilians with their modification of Judo, and Southeast Asians, to a degree, with Kickboxing.



So what?



We also have pictures of dogs that look EXACTLY like our mastiffs and greyhounds. Guess what, they're completely unrelated.

People around the workd play different instruments. Do South American flautists lay any claim to influencing European folk traditions?

It doesn't really take much to realize these things emerge independently.

Ahhh yeshhh the world according to Rusty lol... Everyone is an idiot but him. Still waiting for you to learn what a fact is bub. And speaking of Aristotle, the Caliphate, Alexandria, look it up. Stop spewing nonsense... Its revolting.