Where Did Boxing Originate From?

[Rusty Tromboni]

Ahhh yeshhh the world according to Rusty lol... Everyone is an idiot but him. Still waiting for you to learn what a fact is bub. And speaking of Aristotle, the Caliphate, Alexandria, look it up. Stop spewing nonsense... Its revolting.

Just what exactly do you call that diaper on your head?

[billeau2]

The Mesopatamian depictions show the right hand guard position protecting the body, or "barring the mark" as the English would call it centuries later.

That hand isn't chambered to the hip like in karate or held in some crane or preying mantis pose. To me it's clearly recognizable as a boxing fundamental.

It's true that we don't have extensive knowledge of that style. But just because of that one doesn't simply ignore it and remove it from the history altogether.

It very well could be that Mesopotamian fighting influenced the Egyptian fighting arts which influenced Greece. Those major civilizations were certainly all close enough to each other (both in time and place) for it to happen.

Egyptian hieroglyphs came after Sumerian script and it is thought that they were invented as an outgrowth of the latter. Plato studied 13 years in Egypt and Pythagoras likewise travelled and learned in several Egyptian cities.

So despite any claims of "independent development" we know there was cross cultural influence in the ancient world.

You would need more proof to establish that assertion. power to you if you can...I am on your side. I look at M doing the same thing frankly. He is establishing proof for something that is not generally accepted, and that qualifies as original research.

The fact that a hand position does not look like something is the wrong road to travel... Just a bit of advice about proving a negative and how one establishes something to look into.

I don't know about any outgrowths, it is true that Cuniform scripts are the earliest writing we have. Egyptian script like ancient Chinese is pictoriographic. Eventually these pictures came to represent abstract concepts like grammer, phonetics, etc...a different system than Cuniform.

Plato also wrote a major work on Atlantis that he dictated from an Egyptian priest in the Timaeus. There most certainly was cross culture pollination between Egypt, Greece and even India... Socrates proposes a theory that has elements of reincarnation...I forget the work dictated to Plato.

When establishing proof it is possible to do so where others have failed... It just takes an extra ordinary effort. Martin Bernal was a Chinese scholar who went into Egyptology and was rebuffed, but wound up establishing his theories in Black Athena. To do so he used Linguistic proof, and many other disciplines that all coincided with the same information. He was the first to establish how varied Egypt was...

Yes we know of cross cultural developments... Its a matter of proving the connection.

[billeau2]

Under what rules did Garcia beat Conn and Basillio beat Fullmer?

Your ramblings, what you think you hears, etc are beginning to make Queenie sound sober. Think about that for a second...You lost a long time ago Rusty, the only one who does not know it is you.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Your ramblings, what you think you hears, etc are beginning to make Queenie sound sober. Think about that for a second...You lost a long time ago Rusty, the only one who does not know it is you.

Yeah, my sobriety needs to be questioned. Since I'm the one inventing fights and outcomes that never happened...


The only thing I've lost is my patience with you. Are you on meds?if you have a condition, I'm sorry. But if you've got a clean bill of health, you need to check yourself better.

[ShoulderRoll]

You would need more proof to establish that assertion. power to you if you can...I am on your side. I look at M doing the same thing frankly. He is establishing proof for something that is not generally accepted, and that qualifies as original research.

The fact that a hand position does not look like something is the wrong road to travel... Just a bit of advice about proving a negative and how one establishes something to look into.

I don't know about any outgrowths, it is true that Cuniform scripts are the earliest writing we have. Egyptian script like ancient Chinese is pictoriographic. Eventually these pictures came to represent abstract concepts like grammer, phonetics, etc...a different system than Cuniform.

Plato also wrote a major work on Atlantis that he dictated from an Egyptian priest in the Timaeus. There most certainly was cross culture pollination between Egypt, Greece and even India... Socrates proposes a theory that has elements of reincarnation...I forget the work dictated to Plato.

When establishing proof it is possible to do so where others have failed... It just takes an extra ordinary effort. Martin Bernal was a Chinese scholar who went into Egyptology and was rebuffed, but wound up establishing his theories in Black Athena. To do so he used Linguistic proof, and many other disciplines that all coincided with the same information. He was the first to establish how varied Egypt was...

Yes we know of cross cultural developments... Its a matter of proving the connection.

The boxing connection cannot be proven yet but neither can it be disproven. New archaeological findings happen all the time, though, which improve our understanding.

Given that we know Sumeria influenced Egypt who influenced Greece my preference is to give Mesopatamian boxing acknowledgement and a place at the table in this discussion. Pending further evidence.

If your preference is to not include them that is fine. You've stated your reasons. Not everyone has to agree.

[billeau2]

The boxing connection cannot be proven yet but neither can it be disproven. New archaeological findings happen all the time, though, which improve our understanding.

Given that we know Sumeria influenced Egypt who influenced Greece my preference is to give Mesopatamian boxing acknowledgement and a place at the table in this discussion. Pending further evidence.

If your preference is to not include them that is fine. You've stated your reasons. Not everyone has to agree.

The fact that something cannot be disproven is not an accepted argument. Academically and logically that is not the place you want to take this...Its not a matter of agree/disagree.

On the other hand yes, archeological and even more important Linguistic proof happens all the time, I agree. Did you know that Cunniform, and Meso-American Glyphs are still not really translatable? People get better and better. We were so lucky with Egypt because Egypt went through three phases of writing. Glyphs, Heiratic which was a shortened process of writing the Glyphs, and finally Demotic which is ancient greek alphabet script. It just so happens a French Archeologist found the Rosetta Stone which translates the three scripts into each other!

That was an example, of what you said about a potential "archeological find" that changed what we could know about Egyptian writing.

Sumeria and Egypt were two very distinct cultures, and the degree they influenced each other is debatable. Egypt was an Agrarian state, with two capitals, eventually united. Mesopotamia was an urban culture organized around City States, each independent structures. As Mesopotamia became more conflicted the Gods became more like warlords with the Priests accepting patronage...eventually the Gods became transcendent, distant from the urban population hence, the abstract Sumarian qualities that developed into monotheism. Even the Hebrew one God who would smite all that opposed him came out of that concept.

As you know Baal, was originally Sumarian and we both know the elites love them some Baal.

No you don't have to agree... I am simply explaining to you things that I agree with and disagree with and the reasons why. And you will do better for your own points if you do not do certain things like use logical fallicies (proving a negative) and rhetorical/logical tautological statements.

I agree it is interesting to look at depictions. I would think that one day as we excavate more and more sites, as we get better computers, we will become better at decoding Cuniform while finding more samples of it. There are at least 3 distinct lines of Cunniform: Akkadian, Summarian, and I believe proto semitic? If we do so...given that Sumaria was a warlike society, we could conceviably find a martial arts text about how they used the body in combat.

[billeau2]

Yeah, my sobriety needs to be questioned. Since I'm the one inventing fights and outcomes that never happened...


The only thing I've lost is my patience with you. Are you on meds?if you have a condition, I'm sorry. But if you've got a clean bill of health, you need to check yourself better.

Bravo!!! The first step accomplished, admitting you have a problem. Green K if I can give it! Was that so hard?

Yeah I know... Trolls hate to get a taste of what they do to other posters... Doesn't it suck to have everything you write challenged? and challenged with the most innane statements...Like comparing the greatness of Ray Robinson with fighters who barely register a blip... I hear you.

[PRINCEKOOL]

In Africa.

[ShoulderRoll]

The fact that something cannot be disproven is not an accepted argument. Academically and logically that is not the place you want to take this...Its not a matter of agree/disagree.

We know that a form of fighting with bare fists existed in Sumeria.
Whether or not it influenced other cultures in the same region that came after them is unknown.

But given other areas of influence from Sumer to Egypt to Greece it's not out of place to bring up Mesopotamia in a discussion of boxing origins. And I stand by that.

There is zero proof that English boxing has any lineage to, or that it descended from, Greek boxing. Yet you have no problem giving Greece credit.

It's really no different.

[billeau2]

We know that a form of fighting with bare fists existed in Sumeria.
Whether or not it influenced other cultures in the same region that came after them is unknown.

But given other areas of influence from Sumer to Egypt to Greece it's not out of place to bring up Mesopotamia in a discussion of boxing origins. And I stand by that.

There is zero proof that English boxing has any lineage to, or that it descended from, Greek boxing. Yet you have no problem giving Greece credit.

It's really no different.

Wow! Really? Ok.